224 Valkyrie, why not more interest?

[smoothy8500]

.... let's let this thread die a quick death and forget it was ever created.

As slow as this section is, it'll be up for quite a while.....

[ar15barrels]

can't even pass a background check...yeah, that's it!

Can't pass if you don't try and since you will not try, you definitely can't pass.

the right to manufacture one myself, and that would require I purchase through an FFL which places me in the State database.

[sigstroker]

My intended point was save the parts. After the first one, it's unlikely you'll only build 1 rifle. It's a slippery slope and factory barrels really lose their luster after your first custom.

I'll be at Lynn's match. Sunday only though. I'm already qualified for the 3K. 3 times, twice with a factory 300 PRC RPR. The gun I'll actually shoot will be a recent build on an action I bought cheap 10 years ago when I was just starting hobby precision rifle gunsmithing.

How does that work? They must have gone subsonic long before they got to 3k, but they still fly straight enough to hit target?

[ShaunBrady]

How does that work? They must have gone subsonic long before they got to 3k, but they still fly straight enough to hit target?

A normal URSA match starts at around 2000 yards. You need 3/10 in the qualifying round to shoot the 2k match. If 2 or more shooters go 4/10 in the actual 2k match, the match goes to 2500 yards and no points are carried forward. If an individual shooter gets 5/10, they go into the URSA records with a shooter point. 5/10 also qualifies them for the annual 3k match.

The 3k match is similar to a regular monthly match, except it skips the qualifying and starts at 2500 yards. The 3k is held on Sunday. The Saturday before is a last chance qualifier. There is no guarantee the match will go to 3K and a couple years ago it was won with 2 hits at 2500 yards with a 26" 300 PRC. You take what the course and conditions will give and not everybody shoots in the same conditions.

That's the procedural explanation.

[ShaunBrady]

How does that work? They must have gone subsonic long before they got to 3k, but they still fly straight enough to hit target?

The technical explanation is the subsonic thing is a myth with some basis in fact. It's grossly overstated on the interweb.

There are many bullets that are useless by the time they're subsonic. Sometimes it's because the BC variations are so high, sometimes it's because they won't transition. Some bullets will transition with remarkably low stability factors and some won't settle down regardless of how fast you spin them.

If you're competing on X count at 1000 yards and a 200 point clean is required just to make that evaluation, you don't want to be competing against supersonic loads with subsonic ones. There are limits even with that though. Sometimes cartridge requirements, weight limits, or long strings in the COF set boundaries on how much ballistic performance is available before other issues become a larger problem.

The ELR end game usually isn't finished at Mach 1. This has been known a long time. The 175smk was developed in the mid '90s by Sierra and the Military to address the problems with the 168smk. The 77smk is similar. If you want to test this idea, the easiest way to do it is with those bullets from a 223 or 308 shot far enough to give a velocity below 900 fps. It's straight forward to do, doesn't require expensive optics and works well on silhouette sized targets. In the video that started this thread, Frankie was basically doing a similar demonstration but presenting it as a magical property of the 224V that he'd just discovered. It requires a $3400 scope and great conditions though.

The 26" RPR in 300 PRC was just subsonic at 2050 yards for that day's course conditions (~4000' DA). I'm planning on using a 32" 300 Lapua for the 3K match. Starting the same bullet out 260 fps faster only has another 75 fps left at 2500 yards. It also cuts the barrel life in half.

[liber]

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[liber]

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[RideWest]

The biggest issues the 224 had was bad ammo that was recalled, and subpar performance in regards to accuracy.

Yes you can hit at 2100 yds, saw that on the Hide and Frank is now pushing it big time.

There are tools that will work and the right tools make it that much easier. Is it the right tool for ELR ? No, but anything can hit at 2100 yards.... I'd prefer a 300 Norma, 33XC or maybe my .338 Norma AI, but my Grendel isn't my first choice.

For an all around plinking gun, they are great, but again it's who builds the AR. I've seen guys struggle to get there 224 to group worth a Biden Supporter. A total joke of performance, while my Grendel made some amazing groups as low as thr atrump employment numbers

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

[waveslayer]

Correct, never said Frank shot at 2000. Others shot those diatances. He's pushing his love for that round. It will change and so will the rounds people gravitate to.

[emoji106]



My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

[LynnJr]

Wow this thread took a dive.
The 224 diameter bullet in any chambering is to hard to spot your misses past a mile in sand so its useless in the hard dirt we shoot in above upperlake. And yes I own a 22-06.

On snipers hide there are around 8 posters that are great reloaders shooters and know what they are talking about and only 3 of them post using there real names.

Pacific Tool makes more gun parts and reamers than all the suppliers listed on typershide combined. The staff consists mainly of college students earning some cash with zero gun knowledge at all.
This means if you dont know what you want have your gunsmith order it for you.
I buy from them all the time and sometimes you have to wait on what some would consider easy to make parts.
The typershide in-crowd can't say the truth because lil frank will ban anyone for saying anything about any of his sponsors.
There is a gunsmith who advertises there who no longer buys from pacific tool claiming he trues up remington actions then uses the original bolt without bushing it. He actually posted to me that sloppy bolts shoot good.
As typershide is a money generating machine nobody wants to hurt potential clients feelings so most of the big names simply dont/refuse to post.
If you think about most of the chassis rifles on that forum they are just an action with a aftermarket barrel and 2 bolts holding them to the chassis.
Most are not bedded the triggers are not timed and tracking isnt even heard of. Its wow thats some nice cerakote and those rings have 12 screws so thats a tough rifle.
Every gun doesnt have to be a target gun and the crowd over there like what they like so why rock the boat.
The disinformation they spread is amongst themselves for the most part so no harm no foul.

[ShaunBrady]

Do you feel confident that you can hit 3/10 with your 300 PRC at 3000 yards?

Absolutely not. I'm not even fully prepared for 2500 yet.

I don't have to shoot the gun I qualified with in the match. The other gun I've qualified but won't be shooting is a Savage 116 in 33xc. Its barrel was going down in flames that day. I've rebarreled it, but have more confidence in the velocity spreads with the 300 Lapua.

Probably won't have to though. There has only been one match that I'm aware of that actually went to 3K. The required 4 hits at 2500 yards have started happening more regularly, but not by the 2 shooters needed to go to the next distance.

Could I make a video with 3/10 at 3K using that gun? Maybe after enough tries on cherry picked days. It looks like the firing solution for 3K at the NorCal range conditions would be 47 mils. I have the optics for that, but not the interest.

My reason for shooting the factory 300 PRC RPR in those matches was to see if off the shelf equipment had progressed to the point it was feasible. I like stomping on that "is it supersonic" thing too. Those guns are also available in 300wm and 338 Lapua. There wouldn't be any difference in the outcome if I used either of the other calibers. I actually have 2 of the 338 versions. I bought the first one the first week they were out and rebarreled it to 300 Norma before I shot it. I did load development with the second 338, but that caliber has been beat to death and I just wasn't into it.

After you get past which cartridge is the most rad on the internet and who has the baddest gun, there is a long list of rites of passage you'll need to go through before you start getting hits. My suggestion is to start with a cartridge that has both cheap and Lapua brass while you figure things out. While you work down that list, your perspective on what makes a good ELR rig will likely change.

You seem to be heading down a long preplanned list that's based on ideology and several misconceptions. My guess is it's going to go about as well as a russian tank convoy in Ukraine. ELR would be much more straight forward if you dealt with it separately. Chambering your own barrels is a much bigger deal than how much powder you're using.

I only want to shoot ELR, I have no interest in going to the 200-300 yard ranges. Folsom has a 1000 yard range, but difficult to use if you're not a member. Coalinga has about 1000 and I think SLO has about 1500. Upper Lake is the only place I know if to shoot 2000+, short of finding private land big enough.

Well, Lake County is God's country for ELR and motorcycles. I'm not sure what the current Forest Service policy is for the airport at Lake Pillsbury, but it used to be a popular 1K spot. If it's shut down, it should be straight forward to find somewhere in the forest to do it safely. The fires really cleared the place out. I've also heard about targets around Indian Valley reservoir. I have a KO2M day 1 range set up with permanent targets from 1200 to 2300 yards.

With Lynn's matches, you get a spot that's known to LE that they don't object to, a measured range, a target with hit indicators, a very sophisticated spotting system and multiple spotters. There will also be shooters that are coming at ELR from different directions. On your own, you'll have to work through all that for yourself.

[sigstroker]

I've rebarreled it, but have more confidence in the velocity spreads with the 300 Lapua.

I bought the first one the first week they were out and rebarreled it to 300 Norma before I shot it. I did load development with the second 338, but that caliber has been beat to death and I just wasn't into it.

Slight digression - What's the meaningful difference between the Lapua and the Norma? Do you know why the military chose the Norma?

[ar15barrels]

What's the meaningful difference between the Lapua and the Norma?

OAL.
At a magazine limiting OAL, you have to shove more bullet down into the lapua case than the norma case.

[ShaunBrady]

Slight digression - What's the meaningful difference between the Lapua and the Norma? Do you know why the military chose the Norma?

The difference between the 2 cases is about 10 grains of water if the bullet is seated to the same depth. I seat them out of magazine. I bought a big pile of Lapua manufactured Barnes headstamped 338 Lapua brass for 80 cents a stick and have done a lot of experimenting with things based on that case. What I'm testing here is using a faster powder in a larger case to give velocities similar to the Norma but lower velocity spreads. The velocities wind up being slightly higher at similar pressures, but that's not the point of the exercise. This is not a gun purpose built to win that URSA match. It's what I have available now.

I used to tell my 375 CT shooting buddies that I'd build a 375 when decent brass became available and Hornady produced a 400 grain AMax. Peterson took care of the brass, the 390 ATip is the other piece. Now just isn't a good time to be tooling up a major change in components.

With the military, my understanding is they developed a set of criteria to test against. Beyond trading ballistic performance against barrel life and the length of the strings that can be fired, there was a desire to have a Raufoss round available. There is a 338 version available, but not a 30. Using the same basic cartridge for the 30 caliber sniping round simplified things. As Randall mentioned, the 300 Norma fits in a CIP magazine. This is more important for the military than ELR shooters. Their 300wm load was way too hot for the brass they were using. The field swapable barrels of the MRAD is analogous to ELR shooters that chamber their own barrels. They can step up a notch on case capacity and down on barrel life.