taking a machinist course

[SimonBirch]

So, I eventually wanna become a gunsmith in the near future. Im also looking for a career change. Decided to take a machimist course through NTMA in ontario. Figure I can also land a decent job (not gun related)and work/ gain experience as an apprentice. I also plan on taking a CNC course. Does anyone recommend anything else I should or can do?

[kcstott]

Yep
Take some technical math classes, Geometry, Trigonometry, Algebra.

You'll use it nearly everyday in the machine shop once you get some good experience under your belt.

Buy a machinist hand book, and a Machinist's ready reference. Both books worth their weight in gold in the tool room. I still have mine from 20+ years ago and have add more to the collection.
And buy a good top chest tool box too. don't show up in a tool room with a Homak or a US general or even a Craftsman, Get a Kennedy 526 or better yet a 52611
Buy nothing but name brand tools. Starrett, Mitutoyo, Browne and sharp, Interapid, Lufkin for the old school stuff.

and don't rely heavily on the CNC stuff. it's good to know but with so many trained button pushers it's hard to make a decent living.

Learn the manual machines Take a Solid work class and a master cam class. If you can afford it take a ProE class to. will put you mile ahead of the competition.

[cbright1]

Yep
Take some technical math classes, Geometry, Trigonometry, Algebra.

You'll use it nearly everyday in the machine shop once you get some good experience under your belt.

Buy a machinist hand book, and a Machinist's ready reference. Both books worth their weight in gold in the tool room. I still have mine from 20+ years ago and have add more to the collection.
And buy a good top chest tool box too. don't show up in a tool room with a Homak or a US general or even a Craftsman, Get a Kennedy 526 or better yet a 52611
Buy nothing but name brand tools. Starrett, Mitutoyo, Browne and sharp, Interapid, Lufkin for the old school stuff.

and don't rely heavily on the CNC stuff. it's good to know but with so many trained button pushers it's hard to make a decent living.

Learn the manual machines Take a Solid work class and a master cam class. If you can afford it take a ProE class to. will put you mile ahead of the competition.

Not sure I completely agree with you KC. To make a decent living as a tool maker of your caliber would take much more time for this OP than learning CNC...IMHO. I do agree there are tons of button pushers out there, but as a CNC shop owner, I can tell you most don't know as much as they should, and all of the other owners I know say the same thing. When we do find a sharp individual that has put in his/her time, we do pay.

[kcstott]

Not sure I completely agree with you KC. To make a decent living as a tool maker of your caliber would take much more time for this OP than learning CNC...IMHO. I do agree there are tons of button pushers out there, but as a CNC shop owner, I can tell you most don't know as much as they should, and all of the other owners I know say the same thing. When we do find a sharp individual that has put in his/her time, we do pay.

Well maybe the owners of these shops have finally wised up as that was not the case ten fifteen years ago. We were looked at like a dime a dozen.

Thing is what do you consider a decent wage for an entry level guy?
then what about a guy with 20+ years in thermo and injection molding??

See right now I make more money inspecting cranes then I can turning handles or running an EDM. Finding a good shop is hard to do.

And I didn't mean write off the CNC thing I just meant don't expect to make a decent living pushing buttons, you need ten plus years programing to be worth a darn and worth a decent wage. Same goes for Manual machinist but at least you won't die of boredom being a vise monkey.

I've programmed my fare share of machines it is a good skill to have but a lot of shops won't let you near the CNC stuff, you are either a production machinist and a set up guy or a programmer. Programmers and set up guys make the most on the CNC stuff. the button pushers make half that. roughly.

When i got out of the industry a entry level CNC guy was worth about $12 and hour, and a manual guy was worth about $15 an hour
add about $5 for every ten years experience and you top out at about $28 an hour for a toolmaker in an average shop Not this union crap and he's got 30+ years experience.

I just got off work from a prevailing wage job $66 and hour did that three days this week and have two more next week. I don't know of any shops willing to shell out $30 an hour to over 40 year old toolmaker.

[d4v0s]

As a CNC shop owner where do you feel most operators lack knowledge.

I too am looking at a career change

[cbright1]

Well maybe the owners of these shops have finally wised up as that was not the case ten fifteen years ago. We were looked at like a dime a dozen.

Thing is what do you consider a decent wage for an entry level guy?
then what about a guy with 20+ years in thermo and injection molding??

See right now I make more money inspecting cranes then I can turning handles or running an EDM. Finding a good shop is hard to do.

And I didn't mean write off the CNC thing I just meant don't expect to make a decent living pushing buttons, you need ten plus years programing to be worth a darn and worth a decent wage. Same goes for Manual machinist but at least you won't die of boredom being a vise monkey.

I've programmed my fare share of machines it is a good skill to have but a lot of shops won't let you near the CNC stuff, you are either a production machinist and a set up guy or a programmer. Programmers and set up guys make the most on the CNC stuff. the button pushers make half that. roughly.

When i got out of the industry a entry level CNC guy was worth about $12 and hour, and a manual guy was worth about $15 an hour
add about $5 for every ten years experience and you top out at about $28 an hour for a toolmaker in an average shop Not this union crap and he's got 30+ years experience.

I just got off work from a prevailing wage job $66 and hour did that three days this week and have two more next week. I don't know of any shops willing to shell out $30 an hour to over 40 year old toolmaker.

Well, that I do agree with. I spent many years doing different roles within the machining industry. I was a Jig bore machinist for a while, a cnc operator, set-up, programmer, lead man, supervisor, manager, My last position was Vice President for a Large Aerospace company. A $30 per hour tool maker position is almost obsolete, at least in southern california anyway. A top CNC set up machinist can get close to that, but let's face it, the machinist ability to make a decent living has always been based on overtime. Works out fine when it's booming, but not so good when the economy is flat. I guess my point is, I would not be willing to pay as much for an entry level manual guy than I would for an entry level CNC guy. Mainly because a new cnc can generate income for the company, whereas a new manual machinist will most likely not earn his pay for a while.

[cbright1]

As a CNC shop owner where do you feel most operators lack knowledge.

I too am looking at a career change

To be a good production machinist can be extensive. Knowledge of different materials, cutting tools, cutting methods and the list goes on and on. One of the differences in being a complete machinist as compared to say an auto mechanic is that usually a modern mechanic will always repair a car via a set procedure set forth by the auto manufacturer. The machinist doesn't have that. Each new job has no preset method to be made. The machinist creates the method and only the experienced can do that without scrapping out the order in the end. Almost all parts have some feature that makes the part difficult, so a newbie can make most of the part, but not to completion. That is where the skilled machinist is needed. Most people don't realize that parts don't get made complete 1 by 1. The entire run goes through the first operation, then move on to the 2nd operation and so on. If not careful, the final operation can expose an error that occurred on the first operation. The bottom line is it takes a lot of years of running machines(and KC is right, it can be really boring) to gain the experience needed. And, it is also true that some shops will pigeon hole you into being a button pusher and it does seem like you are working your butt off for nothing. All the while, you always feel you are not making enough money. The real money is in the management.

[kcstott]

Well, that I do agree with. I spent many years doing different roles within the machining industry. I was a Jig bore machinist for a while, a cnc operator, set-up, programmer, lead man, supervisor, manager, My last position was Vice President for a Large Aerospace company. A $30 per hour tool maker position is almost obsolete, at least in southern california anyway. A top CNC set up machinist can get close to that, but let's face it, the machinist ability to make a decent living has always been based on overtime. Works out fine when it's booming, but not so good when the economy is flat. I guess my point is, I would not be willing to pay as much for an entry level manual guy than I would for an entry level CNC guy. Mainly because a new cnc can generate income for the company, whereas a new manual machinist will most likely not earn his pay for a while.

Good points you are correct about the overtime. the last company I went to work for as a Toolmaker back in 98, we had about two solid years of overtime 60 hours a week was a break, I was doing 70+ hours with saturdays included. Then the overtime was all dried up 2001 9/11 and it was like 1929 (as if I know what that was like)
Point is about the wage I don't agree with the over time thing. That is a bonus not a benefit. You never live on found money and that over time is found money and can dry up at any second. Problem is to many guys didn't live by that rule and went belly up at home buy stuff they couldn't pay for. Oh wait we did that again in 2007 man we just don't learn do we.

Yeah I guess things haven't changed much wage wise. Thats why I said Screw this I'll do my machine work at home.... where I can make $10 an hour on a flat rate job Oh well that will teach me I may be a hell of a toolmake but i can't bid a job to save my life.

[cbright1]

Well maybe the owners of these shops have finally wised up as that was not the case ten fifteen years ago. We were looked at like a dime a dozen.

Thing is what do you consider a decent wage for an entry level guy?
then what about a guy with 20+ years in thermo and injection molding??

See right now I make more money inspecting cranes then I can turning handles or running an EDM. Finding a good shop is hard to do.

And I didn't mean write off the CNC thing I just meant don't expect to make a decent living pushing buttons, you need ten plus years programing to be worth a darn and worth a decent wage. Same goes for Manual machinist but at least you won't die of boredom being a vise monkey.

I've programmed my fare share of machines it is a good skill to have but a lot of shops won't let you near the CNC stuff, you are either a production machinist and a set up guy or a programmer. Programmers and set up guys make the most on the CNC stuff. the button pushers make half that. roughly.

When i got out of the industry a entry level CNC guy was worth about $12 and hour, and a manual guy was worth about $15 an hour
add about $5 for every ten years experience and you top out at about $28 an hour for a toolmaker in an average shop Not this union crap and he's got 30+ years experience.

I just got off work from a prevailing wage job $66 and hour did that three days this week and have two more next week. I don't know of any shops willing to shell out $30 an hour to over 40 year old toolmaker.

Not to be critical, but by the time I was 40 years old, I had already moved up to upper management. That's the thing with the machining industry, you have to keep moving forward with your career or you will price yourself right out of a job. Also, you have to start your career in this industry early. Trying to reinvent yourself as a machinist when you are in your 30's is tough because you have to work for too low pay and in your 30's you probably already have a wife and children. As an executive, I was making over $250K. Obviously, we don't pay machinists that much. I have never seen a manual guy move up the ladder that high. it's the CNC guys (and it's the few really special ones) that escalate themselves to lead man, supervisor, manager and then executive.

[cbright1]

If I am being honest, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't wonder if there is a better way to make a living.

[kcstott]

If I am being honest, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't wonder if there is a better way to make a living.

Thats every machinist out there

[Ag_Surfer]

No bed of roses

Thats every machinist out there

I love my job I love my job so I keep telling my self . I have been Cnc programing, short run and prototype for 38 + years and I could always find a job it may not been the best pay or a bed of roses but always had a pay check.

My point here is go to school take as many classes as you can so when you get the chance you will be ready for it.

[MPG]

Button pushers are a dime a dozen
Must Be a thinker/ leader

[kcstott]

What boggle my mind is this guys getting a law degree yet he want to take a pay cut to get an education so he can be expert witness on cases.

Screw that increase your fees and hire somebody to be expert witness for you.

[kcstott]

Button pushers are a dime a dozen
Must Be a thinker/ leader

Tell that to the owner of the last company I worked for. Talk to that guy they have a world class tool room. Oh BS they do. My garage is damn near better equipped.