Machining & Metal working

[krwada]

I was wondering ... since this primarily a firearms blog whether it is OK or not to just talk about machining and metal working in general. I know I can head on over to places like Practical Machinist dot com. However, the practical machinist is pretty intimidating and is a huge site on all things machining.

Plus, I really like Calguns. At first I was a bit concerned about getting flamed here ... However, I have noticed that getting some pithy comments here at Calguns is a pretty normal occurrence ... so this does not bother me much. Plus, I would much rather discuss machining stuff here because of the very pervasive 'tilt' towards machining ... with a firearms kind of environment here.

What I really like is that there appears to be some really skilled and knowledgeable folks on all things machining here. In fact ... for some ... (like KCSTOTT), tool making and machining is like a passion.

It is good to rub elbows with those who know alot, are willing to share information, tips and tricks ... especially those who are masters of the metal working trade.

I learned how to operate a lathe, mill, drill press and surface grinder many years ago when I went to University at UC Berkeley as a graduate student. I was taught how to setup and use these tools by a Master Machinist at the Lawrence Labs. I used this knowledge to make a bunch of stuff for my research projects for high vacuum environments and high temperature materials.

Just last night ... I was very pleased to see those cutting tools I made over 30 years ago still work as well today as they did back when I ground them into shape many years ago.

I still consider myself a novice machinist .... (just got back into it about 5 months ago).

So ... do you think it OK to discuss machining and metal working stuff here? Or do I need to be "on-task" with a gun-smithing ... firearm-related machining? I would very much like to discuss some of my experiences ... so far ... about machining in general.

Thanks!
krwada

[yari]

Considering people ask which mill to buy here all the time, I'd say have at it. Machining is a important part of gunsmithing. What are we building???

[krwada]

building

Considering people ask which mill to buy here all the time, I'd say have at it. Machining is a important part of gunsmithing. What are we building???

I am currently building an ultra-light 1022. Mostly, the machining is for a Franken-carbine-stock. I have a Volquartsen carbon fiber barrel, and KIDD internals on this thing. I am making major modifications to a 1022 charger stock to put a carbon fiber extension on it with a skeletonized butt-plate assembly.

The idea is to make this thing look somewhat like an MP5 with as many cool evil features as possible while still conforming to the law.

One of the most amazing things I have found is the sheer amount of time I am spending making jigs and fixtures. I suppose if I were to make the 1st one ... then the next several would be much easier since now I have all these fixtures I have built...

But ... actually.... building all of these things to solve specific problems is most of the fun.

I do not get how a professional machinist can make any money at this. While at Lawrence, our Master Machinist ... all he had to do was to promise delivery of the part by a certain date ... and he charged our research accounts for his time and materials ... much better than being a production machinist from what I can see.

If I had to do machining for a living ... I would have a bunch of fun ... but I would most likely starve too.

[ar15barrels]

I do not get how a professional machinist can make any money at this.

Find enough people with projects who will pay for your time...

[VegasND]

I always read the threads on buying machine tools.


I voted: Yes

[VictorFranko]

Machining and associated questions are discussed here all the time.
There are some very knowledgeable professionals here more than happy to share their experience and some hobbyist home machinists that know what they are doing too.
When 'kcstott' speaks, listen to him.

I do not get how a professional machinist can make any money at this.

Experience, in set-ups and tool making plus having the right tools and equipment at hand is one way. Experience equals shortened start to finish time.

A one-off part costs a lot more than a large quantity. People don't understand that. You want one? That'll be $100. You want ten? That'll be $200.
The set-up, any tool making or programming has to be built into the cost of the part, but the cool thing is, once you've made the tool, you have it forever, already paid for. Same with a CNC program.

When I order material, let's say I need two bars of 1/4 x 1.0 extruded aluminum. The cost delivered is $50. The cost for four bars is $50. The cost for five bars delivered is still $50 because the metal supply has a minimum charge of $50 for delivery. Six bars delivered cost $59.76, so I order six bars, charge the customer $50 for the two bars needed for his job, and I rack four bars for future use and they only cost me $9.76!
I also sell back all the chips and turnings for recycling from the material that the customer paid for. It may be small, but it adds up.

There is still money to be made in machining/manufacturing in this country.



As far as your poll, don't pay any mind to those saying "No, it's a gun forum" or "No, go to PracticalMachinist.com".
Without machining there would be no gunsmithing and without gunsmithing...........hopefully you get the point.
Notice the "No" votes are anonymous (no comments explaining their reasoning)? It would be fun to see where and what those voters do with their posts (in OT talking about cars, beer or Obama?) LOL.

[krwada]

Time and Materials?

Find enough people with projects who will pay for your time...

Machinists charge by Time and Materials? I thought they did fixed bid on projects. Usually, when I have made out a Purchase Order, I get a quote for tooling and setup, and a fixed price for a quantity of prototypes.

Now, those master machinists working at those large research institutions ... They get a budget, salary and a pension. All of that charging time and materials is mostly there for accounting purposes.

[krwada]

All that swarf

Machining and associated questions are discussed here all the time.
There are some very knowledgeable professionals here more than happy to share their experience and some hobbyist home machinists that know what they are doing too.
When 'kcstott' speaks, listen to him.




Experience, in set-ups and tool making plus having the right tools and equipment at hand is one way. Experience equals shortened start to finish time.

A one-off part costs a lot more than a large quantity. People don't understand that. You want one? That'll be $100. You want ten? That'll be $200.
The set-up, any tool making or programming has to be built into the cost of the part, but the cool thing is, once you've made the tool, you have it forever, already paid for. Same with a CNC program.

When I order material, let's say I need two bars of 1/4 x 1.0 extruded aluminum. The cost delivered is $50. The cost for four bars is $50. The cost for five bars delivered is still $50 because the metal supply has a minimum charge of $50 for delivery. Six bars delivered cost $59.76, so I order six bars, charge the customer $50 for the two bars needed for his job, and I rack four bars for future use and they only cost me $9.76!
I also sell back all the chips and turnings for recycling from the material that the customer paid for. It may be small, but it adds up.

There is still money to be made in machining/manufacturing in this country.

I was wondering where all that swarf goes. I am glad to hear that folks are recycling the swarf. This stuff is still perfectly good material. I have seen how much of it is generated ... even in a small shop.

[VictorFranko]

I was wondering where all that swarf goes. I am glad to hear that folks are recycling the swarf. This stuff is still perfectly good material. I have seen how much of it is generated ... even in a small shop.

I added a note to my previous post while you posted this. Go back for it please.

Recycling is a huge part of our industry.
I had a small tool and die shop years ago and some of the customers that I built dies for wanted me to keep, maintain and run the dies for them in my punch presses.
On some jobs, the profit was made in selling the scrap material.

[yari]

In my opinion the number one money making tip I can pass along is designing fixtures is worth extra time spent. I'm doing production runs of 30 different parts right now 3_4 operations each. All of my fixtures use the same reference point, same tool order. The time saved in set ups is huge.

[krwada]

Fixtures

In my opinion the number one money making tip I can pass along is designing fixtures is worth extra time spent. I'm doing production runs of 30 different parts right now 3_4 operations each. All of my fixtures use the same reference point, same tool order. The time saved in set ups is huge.

One of the things that I have found is that not only do fixtures save time and money. Fixtures also make the seeming impossible possible.

So another question ... what do you use to help design the fixture?

Right now, being an embedded / EE / software type ... I use the Visio diagramming tool. It seems to work OK for me.

I was wondering whether or not if there are simple ... low cost drafting packages out there where I can do this type of design. Visio works OK for now ... it is a bit cumbersome.

[VictorFranko]

So another question ... what do you use to help design the fixture?

Unless you are talking some extremely complicated tooling, I usually use a pencil and a quad pad.

[krwada]

design

Unless you are talking some extremely complicated tooling, I usually use a pencil and a quad pad.

I do a lot of this too. In fact, I now have a notebook just for machining projects now. I recorded a lot of dimensions from my mill. I did this so I could design the mounting fixtures for the DROS for the thing.

I can say this much for certain ... Having a set of DROS is very nice. It sure beats counting ticks on those hand wheels!

I now have notebooks for machining projects in addition to reloading.

[ar15barrels]

Machinists charge by Time and Materials? I thought they did fixed bid on projects. Usually, when I have made out a Purchase Order, I get a quote for tooling and setup, and a fixed price for a quantity of prototypes.

Experience teaches you how to look at a job and estimate time/materials.
Then, you make your fixed bid and try to beat it.

In my gunsmithing practice, I have a "price list" for standard jobs.
Then, I have a "shop rate" for non-listed work.
I can generally beat my "shop rate" on all my fixed price jobs as I have the setups all worked out.

[50BMGBOB]

It is just like car repairs. Most shops have a book rate that they charge (in that industry there is a standard) and most mechanics can beat it. If you are learning, you move slower and take time to figure it out. Experience save time in figuring it out and if it is a common job you can do it without thinking, you might even have the machine already set up saving that much more time.