Mauser (Large Ring) Bolt Face Lapping Tool

[CEDaytonaRydr]

Well, I took some measurements:

Barrel: Length from breech to top of threads - .6285"

Length from receiver face to C-ring:

12 o'clock - .6335
3 o'clock - .6370
6 o'clock - .6340
8 o'clock - .6375
10 o'clock - .6355

So, I think I'm going to have to true the receiver face after all. Otherwise, the barrel is going to mate to the receiver face instead of the c-ring.

[kcstott]

And exactly how did you do that??? A pair of dial calipers??

This answers my previous question about if you knew all the ins and outs of installing a barrel.

Did you think you could just buy a barrel and thread it on and be done?? Like I said before, even a pre threaded barrel is not PRE FIT. You have to set the barrel up in the lathe and take a cut on the shoulder.
You cut the barrel to match the action not the other way around.
The work I stated that is do on and to the action is only done to make all the surfaces concentric and square with each other. The action is not machined in any way to allow for the barrel. The barrel is machined to allow for the action.

[kendog4570]

Well, I took some measurements:

Barrel: Length from breech to top of threads - .6285"

Length from receiver face to C-ring:

12 o'clock - .6335
3 o'clock - .6370
6 o'clock - .6340
8 o'clock - .6375
10 o'clock - .6355

So, I think I'm going to have to true the receiver face after all. Otherwise, the barrel is going to mate to the receiver face instead of the c-ring.

You're out of your league. Why dont you have this part of your project done by a professional? There is a bit more going on there than is readily apparent, and it can snowball on you real fast.
What caliber barrel are you installing?

[CEDaytonaRydr]

You're out of your league.

Yeah, I know... Hence, the numerous questions in the gunsmithing section of this forum. If I knew everything already, I wouldn't be asking.

Why dont you have this part of your project done by a professional?

Three reasons: 1) It's meant to be a gift for my wife, who is currently deployed to the Middle East, and I want to do the majority of the work myself, 2) I'm not going to learn anything about building rifles by letting someone else do the work and 3) It would probably cost twice as much to have a professional gunsmith do everything I want to do.

There is a bit more going on there than is readily apparent, and it can snowball on you real fast.
What caliber barrel are you installing?

Adams and Bennett, 22-250, stainless steel.

[CEDaytonaRydr]

You have to set the barrel up in the lathe and take a cut on the shoulder.
You cut the barrel to match the action not the other way around.

I don't see what the problem is with truing the secondary torque shoulder to make up the difference between the barrel and the C-ring. It's not like it's some wild idea. http://www.sporterizing.com/index.php?showtopic=4287

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8X5-CDJl-c

[kendog4570]

... ...Three reasons: 1) It's meant to be a gift for my wife, who is currently deployed to the Middle East, and I want to do the majority of the work myself, 2) I'm not going to learn anything about building rifles by letting someone else do the work and 3) It would probably cost twice as much to have a professional gunsmith do everything I want to do.

Adams and Bennett, 22-250, stainless steel.

It will cost you about 5000 times as much as a standard pre-fit, pre-threaded, short chambered barrel install charge, by the time you buy the machines, tools, and the education. Like KCStott says, NONE of the "drop-ins", drop in.
Based on your follow-up post about chopping the receiver, your not learning anything anyway.
I have a live pilot JGS reamer for that caliber, and I could nail this for you in about two hours for a nominal fee and it would be done right. Included in the cost would be a real crown and not the cheesy center reamer cut that most pre-fits have, 220 polish, and pantographed caliber engraving for caliber etc. My work is licensed and insured.
Please thank your wife for her service. I have a son going on his 4th deployment, It's never easy for the family, not to mention the soldier.

Let me know if I can help.

[CEDaytonaRydr]

Based on your follow-up post about chopping the receiver, your not learning anything anyway.
I have a live pilot JGS reamer for that caliber, and I could nail this for you in about two hours for a nominal fee and it would be done right. Included in the cost would be a real crown and not the cheesy center reamer cut that most pre-fits have, 220 polish, and pantographed caliber engraving for caliber etc. My work is licensed and insured.
Please thank your wife for her service.

Let me know if I can help.

So, I've been trying to keep this courteous because I'm sure both you and KC are experienced gunsmiths, and I'm sure your knowledge base is tremendous but just a suggestion:

If you're going to offer your services to me, beginning the conversation with insults about how I am "not learning anything anyway" isn't the best way to go about it. Sarcasm and snide remarks are not really what I look for in a professional business. Seriously dude, all I'm doing is asking questions here; you're treating it like a personal affront because I don't already know the answer.

Nothing personal, guys, you sound like some fairly experienced smiths but I'm not giving any work to either of you, if you're going to insult my intelligence and my desire to learn. I'm sure you'll respond by saying "well, you're asking stupid questions" or "you have no idea what you're doing", and you might be correct in both cases but I'm not going to do business with someone who publicly berrates me for asking a question.

[kendog4570]

So, I've been trying to keep this courteous because I'm sure both you and KC are experienced gunsmiths, and I'm sure your knowledge base is tremendous but just a suggestion:

If you're going to offer your services to me, beginning the conversation with insults about how I am "not learning anything anyway" isn't the best way to go about it. Sarcasm and snide remarks are not really what I look for in a professional business. Seriously dude, all I'm doing is asking questions here; you're treating it like a personal affront because I don't already know the answer.

Nothing personal, guys, you sound like some fairly experienced smiths but I'm not giving any work to either of you, if you're going to insult my intelligence and my desire to learn. I'm sure you'll respond by saying "well, you're asking stupid questions" or "you have no idea what you're doing", and you might be correct in both cases but I'm not going to do business with someone who publicly berrates me for asking a question.

Sorry you took it that way. Nobody is berating you. You keep asking the question after it has been answered. No question is stupid, but you keep going back to how you perceive it should be done, rather than they way it is properly done.
It's like somebody asking directions, and when directed to turn left, you say "but I want to go right. I dont see a problem".
Just a suggestion...

No big deal. Go ahead and learn how to do it. We need more talented gun plumbers anyhow. If you still want advice, I can give it, here or PM. No hard feelings if you dont.
Ken

[CEDaytonaRydr]

Sorry you took it that way.

How else am I supposed to take it when you say "you're not learning anything anyway". What would you classify that as, exactly? Helpful advice? "Tough love"? ...or perhaps, the bitter ramblings of a self-righteous, "know-it-all"? You tell me how I'm supposed to "take" that.

You keep asking the question after it has been answered. No question is stupid, but you keep going back to how you perceive it should be done, rather than they way it is properly done.

The question might have been answered by you two, but its still a topic for debate; why else would Larry Potterfield, owner of Midway USA and master gunsmith, waste time doing truing the receiver face if it wasn't beneficial? Why are gunsmiths on Mauser Central doing it? Just because you and KC (two "random" guys from an internet forum) say that you don't need to true the secondary torque shoulder doesn't mean that the question has been definitively answered. You are not the "final authority" on the subject; you're nobody! There is obviously a difference of opinion as to whether or not this is necessary/beneficial and I would like to know the "real" answer. You might be right, you might be wrong but I just want to understand why your opinion differs from conventional wisdom.

Go ahead and learn how to do it. We need more talented gun plumbers anyhow. If you still want advice, I can give it, here or PM. No hard feelings if you dont.

Oh, yeah, no hard feelings. I mean, I wouldn't want to "take anything the wrong way". Keep your advice... I think I can do better... (can't really do any worse)

...oh, and please don't take that the "wrong way".

[kcstott]

I don't see what the problem is with truing the secondary torque shoulder to make up the difference between the barrel and the C-ring. It's not like it's some wild idea. http://www.sporterizing.com/index.php?showtopic=4287

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8X5-CDJl-c

I'm not even going to open the links. Just because it's on the web don't make it right. Machine tool technology 101: You modify the less expensive part to fit the more expensive part.

The question might have been answered by you two, but its still a topic for debate; why else would Larry Potterfield, owner of Midway USA and master gunsmith, waste time doing truing the receiver face if it wasn't beneficial? Why are gunsmiths on Mauser Central doing it? Just because you and KC (two "random" guys from an internet forum) say that you don't need to true the secondary torque shoulder doesn't mean that the question has been definitively answered. You are not the "final authority" on the subject; you're nobody! There is obviously a difference of opinion as to whether or not this is necessary/beneficial and I would like to know the "real" answer. You might be right, you might be wrong but I just want to understand why your opinion differs from conventional wisdom.

Larry potter field is an Idiot. And he is by far not a Master Gunsmith.

Lets question his credentials. Does he build custom rifles for customers? NO
Does he have any experience working on high end customs? NO.
Does he have any experience working on doubles? NO.

He is nothing more then the owner of Midway. And he does a great service to the home gunsmith. But a lot of his practices would not hold up in a real shop. He shows a lot of techniques that are completely wrong let alone misleading.

Now as I said Cleaning up the front ring face is not to be done to fit the barrel.
It is only done on rifles that the barrel seats on the ring face. and it is only enough to clean up.

Question
Do you have a lathe?
Do you have a fixture for the receiver?
Do you know how to indicate something in between centers?

These are the precautions that must be paid attention too to do the job right.

Now if you want to criticize us on our techniques be my guest. Now if you wish to get a little upset by the direction we are trying to point you in. Sorry But that attitude wouldn't last a minute in a machine shop.

You asked for advice. I gave you the best advice I could. I even posted my punch list for how to build a precision rifle. Something that has never been published to the web before. I will not however coddle you. If you need a hug I am not the man for the job.

That said If you would lie to fully accurize the rifle go for it. But it's really not necessary. Especially with an A&B barrel. If you want to dump that much time and effort into a rifle you need to start with a better barrel.
Because it may not shoot worth a **** when you're done.

You are taking thing out of context.

[6mmintl]

All I want to add to this Do's, Dont's Dont have to's and wont's is Kendog4570 chambered a VZ24 mauser action in 7.62x39 Lapua with a Kreiger 1x10" .308 match barrel and it will shoot .5 MOA all day out to 600 yards with 135 and 155 Sierra matchkings. He can tell you what he did to make it shoot,.

Listen and learn, its easy.

[CEDaytonaRydr]

I'm not even going to open the links. Just because it's on the web don't make it right.

What about the things that you've posted on the internet? That stuff is infallible, I presume.

Machine tool technology 101: You modify the less expensive part to fit the more expensive part.

In that case: I paid $139 for the entire rifle at Sarco (when they were selling to CA), so I'll say the receiver is worth maybe half that; call it $70, for good measure. I paid $133 for the A&B barrel (I know, "they suck", I heard you the first 3 times). So, by your own logic, I guess I should go ahead and square the receiver then, correct? ...I mean, that is clearly the cheaper part.

Larry potter field is an Idiot. And he is by far not a Master Gunsmith.
Lets question his credentials. Does he build custom rifles for customers? NO
Does he have any experience working on high end customs? NO.
Does he have any experience working on doubles? NO.

He is nothing more then the owner of Midway. And he does a great service to the home gunsmith. But a lot of his practices would not hold up in a real shop. He shows a lot of techniques that are completely wrong let alone misleading.

I think it's safe to say that he's done more for gunsmithing, and gun rights in general, than you have. When your shop gives $5M to the NRA, let me know.

Now as I said Cleaning up the front ring face is not to be done to fit the barrel.
It is only done on rifles that the barrel seats on the ring face. and it is only enough to clean up.

Yeah, that's all I was planning on doing. All I need to take off is a bit less that a hundredth anyway and the barrel should be seating on the C-Ring. Besides, in your last reply you ridiculed me for my measurements but honestly, what difference does it make? Even if I were to use a depth micrometer, if the face of the receiver isn't true, how do I know whether a high point, or low point is on the receiver face, or on the C-ring? Let me answer that one for you: You don't!!! So really, it doesn't matter if I used a depth micrometer, dial calipers, or a ruler.

Question
Do you have a lathe?

Buddy has a machine shop in Northern California, right near my folk's place.

Do you have a fixture for the receiver?

Brownell's has mandrels in stock for $84.99

Do you know how to indicate something in between centers?

That's "day 1" lathe operation. The first time I did that, I think I was a freshman in a high school wood shop class.

Now if you want to criticize us on our techniques be my guest. Now if you wish to get a little upset by the direction we are trying to point you in. Sorry But that attitude wouldn't last a minute in a machine shop. You asked for advice.

I didn't criticize either of you until you both ridiculed me and really, all I said was that if "kendog" expects me to give him business, he better check his attitude and snide remarks. I asked for advice but I didn't ask to be berated and disrespected; maybe it's the Captain in me from my military days but I just won't tolerate that sort of disrespect.

I gave you the best advice I could. I even posted my punch list for how to build a precision rifle. Something that has never been published to the web before. I will not however coddle you. If you need a hug I am not the man for the job.

I think you have a bit of a superiority complex, man. It wasn't exactly the "end all and be all". Honestly, it left me with more questions than answers. Besides, a guy I know once said:

Just because it's on the web don't make it right.

Live by the sword...

That said If you would lie to fully accurize the rifle go for it. But it's really not necessary. Especially with an A&B barrel. If you want to dump that much time and effort into a rifle you need to start with a better barrel.

Like I said, dude; It's a gift for my wife. I want it to be reasonably accurate. It doesn't need to be sub-MOA. Truth be told, she'll probably only shoot it a couple times a year.

You are taking thing out of context.

Am I?

Exactly what "context" am I supposed to take this in?

Go ahead and learn how to do it. We need more talented gun plumbers anyhow.

Or these?

And exactly how did you do that??? A pair of dial calipers? This answers my previous question about if you knew all the ins and outs of installing a barrel.

You're out of your league. Why dont you have this part of your project done by a professional?

Yeah, this is definitely a case of me misunderstanding constructive criticism.

All I want to add to this Do's, Dont's Dont have to's and wont's is Kendog4570 chambered a VZ24 mauser action in 7.62x39 Lapua with a Kreiger 1x10" .308 match barrel and it will shoot .5 MOA all day out to 600 yards with 135 and 155 Sierra matchkings. He can tell you what he did to make it shoot,.

So what? I don't care if he walks on water and feeds orphaned kittens in his free time. He's rude!

...and as such, he will get none of my money. Nothing personal.

[freonr22]

I heard 2 very experienced rifle builders with credentials, take time to speak their trade to you.
I heard one say, " I really don't have this typed out, to cut and paste, but if you want, I will take a fair amount of time and type it for you"

I heard another say, at the end of the day, if it's something you do all day long, it can be done in a couple hours, (ie not a huge expense).

Just trying to cut through the clutter.

[kcstott]

What about the things that you've posted on the internet? That stuff is infallible, I presume.

In that case: I paid $139 for the entire rifle at Sarco (when they were selling to CA), so I'll say the receiver is worth maybe half that; call it $70, for good measure. I paid $133 for the A&B barrel (I know, "they suck", I heard you the first 3 times). So, by your own logic, I guess I should go ahead and square the receiver then, correct? ...I mean, that is clearly the cheaper part.

That just shows what you know and more importantly what you are willing to listen to. Again no one here is trying to belittle you, berate you, insult you or anything else. We are simply try to give to the best advice we can based on the information we are receiving.

I think it's safe to say that he's done more for gunsmithing, and gun rights in general, than you have. When your shop gives $5M to the NRA, let me know.

Larry is a business owner, At one time he might have been a gunsmith but I doubt it. By my perception he is not comfortable around machine tools. So that tells me his level of experience on machine tools is limited.
As for donating $5M to the NRA that doesn't make you a successful gunsmith. That makes you a successful business owner.
Now Cliff LaBounty, Pete Grisel, Sterling Davenport, Sonny Hill, Tom Burgess, nor P.O. Ackley ever donated that kind of money to the NRA. But they are the ones that I want working on my rifles Well the one that are still alive and working on rifles I should say.

Yeah, that's all I was planning on doing. All I need to take off is a bit less that a hundredth anyway and the barrel should be seating on the C-Ring. Besides, in your last reply you ridiculed me for my measurements but honestly, what difference does it make? Even if I were to use a depth micrometer, if the face of the receiver isn't true, how do I know whether a high point, or low point is on the receiver face, or on the C-ring? Let me answer that one for you: You don't!!! So really, it doesn't matter if I used a depth micrometer, dial calipers, or a ruler.

Again (And I'm only trying to help) you don't know what IS out. The receiver face may be perfect but the way you are measuring doesn't tell you anything. If you so choose to face the ring face the receiver needs to be placed between centers on a mandrel and indicated in with a "Tenths" indicator Not an indicator with .0005" graduations but a .00005" graduated indicator. This is done so that the amount of inherent error in the indicator can be discounted.

That said truing up the face is only one of many steps involved in making an action accurate. I'll leave the barrel issue alone, But we are putting Chrome rims on a VW here.(only doing one or two things out of a hundred needed to make it right) You have to set the barrel up anyway to finish ream the chamber. Why not while it's in the lathe bump the shoulder back a touch so your barrel tenon is the correct length.
By your own admission with the way you measured the C ring you really don't know what is out So why even measure it then. and why the way you did it. Again indicated between centers is the only way to know what is out and where.

I didn't criticize either of you until you both ridiculed me and really, all I said was that if "kendog" expects me to give him business, he better check his attitude and snide remarks. I asked for advice but I didn't ask to be berated and disrespected; maybe it's the Captain in me from my military days but I just won't tolerate that sort of disrespect.

Didn't fork and knife school ever tell you "you should listen to your NCO's??
With all due respect Captain (I'm being very serious and genuine. Not sarcastic in any way) you are not seeing the big picture and you are taking advice from a questionable source. i.e. you tube and Larry. I've seen both of them give very erroneous advice.
I can burn you a copy of the Shotgun news magazine I have and send you a copy It was a special issue with how to rebuild a MAuser from the ground up.

I think you have a bit of a superiority complex, man. It wasn't exactly the "end all and be all". Honestly, it left me with more questions than answers. Besides, a guy I know once said: Live by the sword...

Would not be the same said about you. A man that earned a commission in the US military. A man that was trained to know his job??
Well Captain I spent the first five years of my career as an Old school toolmakers Apprentice then spent the rest of my career learning everyday.
I just may have a Superiority complex. I'm German, I'm a Tool maker, I know what I'm doing. I take extreme pride of craftsman ship in everything I do. so Yeah maybe I am an arrogant German (as so many have come to find out) And when you want something made that is not only perfect to print but it was made to perfection in finish as well, People call me.

And this arrogant German still bends over backwards to help those that need it.

Now as for leaving you with more questions then answers. You need to read the very first section of my punch list. It says and I quote.

This is a guide to building a precision rifle. It is not a construction manual and it is assumed that the person building the rifle is knowledgeable in the use of machine tools and the proper setup and fixturing of those tools. This procedure does not include modifications to allow the rifle to feed properly. Feeding issues should be handled as a separate operation after accurizing has been accomplished.

That means you have to know what you are doing in the machine shop to make heads or tails of this. It was never intended to be be a DIY Home Brewed rebarrel procedure You can not be taught to rebarrel a rifle from reading a book or watching a video. it has to be hands on training from someone with experience.

Yeah, this is definitely a case of me misunderstanding constructive criticism.

So what? I don't care if he walks on water and feeds orphaned kittens in his free time. He's rude!

...and as such, he will get none of my money. Nothing personal.

And nor should you receive anymore free advice. You see we tried to give you proper direction and you still ignored the advice. You've proven that you don't know what you're doing when it comes to metrology. So until you can understand how to take a proper measurement I'm going to say you're not doing it correctly and you may foul something up.

Now Ken only got mildly rude and only after beating his head against a wall of frustration caused by someone that "don't get it"

Where are you located? As I would like you to come over to my shop and spend an hour looking over your action and I'll explain why things are done a certain way. No charge.