Saiga 308

[Penzanse]

I have a Saiga 308 (I know, I know, get a real mbr). I think I have a problem with the FGC so I'm hoping the smiths here can help me. My 308 has been converted to the pistol grip configuration using the tapco G2 single hook trigger. When I pull the trigger, it feels like it is really DRAGGING. With the hammer cocked, as I pull the trigger, the sear never contacts the hammer, the hammer falls but only because the hammer falls off the disconnecter as the trigger is pulled so it feels like a LONG trigger pull.

I put the original trigger back in and the sear works like it should. The original trigger geometry seems different to the G2's in that the back of the trigger base has that "wishbone" thingy on it and it looks like the angle is different.

Can anyone with a Saiga 308 look at their converted trigger operation and tell me if mine is just hosed ?

Thanks!

[69Mach1]

That fire control group operation you're describing is wrong. First the parts.
Trigger
Hammer
Disconnector

As the bolt carrier comes back it cocks the hammer. The hammer is then captured by the trigger hook. The disconnector is not engaged at this time. When you pull the trigger, the hammer is released from off of the trigger hook. As the trigger is pulled back the disconnector moves up into position. When the round is fired (trigger is still held back), the bolt carrier will cock the hammer back and the disconnector engages the hammer to hold it back. When you release the trigger (reset) the disconnector dis-engages and the hammer is caught by the trigger hook, ready for the next trigger pull.

Now, what is your problem?

Also, on the .308, the hammer must be "notched" to clear the center support. And, a long trigger pull is normal.

[Deadon]

There are good videos on youtube for the trigger conversion. Check them out.

[Penzanse]

My bad....I used the wrong terminology. My hammer catches on the trigger hook but the disconnector doesn't push the hammer off the hook. I have very little experience on the AK and I used terms I was used to without checking.

In looking at this problem, it would appear that If I grind the front bottom of the disconnector, it will get closer to the hammer. Are these G2 single hooks drop ins or do they require a little fitting?

[Penzanse]

Just got this link :

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/notesak/aktrigger/pageaktrigger.shtml#anchor1

It's about hammer follow but it has the correct dimensions for the FGC. My G2 hook to hook gap is .425" and the factory FGC gap is .398". So, for the G2 FGC for a 308 conversion some fitting may be required.

[Penzanse]

No, what I'm saying is that the disconnector WAS not working. Never mind.

I took a few thousandths of the bottom edge of the disconector and now it "pushes" the hammer off the front hook. Once I read the link I posted, I could readily see that my front hook to back hook dimension was wrong. Because the dimension was too wide, the disconector was not "disconecting" the hammer. The hammer was "falling off" the front hook.

I think that a lot of people don't actually know what the disconnector does. If you take a piece of paper and place it between the disconector and the hammer, as you pull the trigger, you will feel the contact. I too did not know exactly how the FGC worked. The link spained a lot.

[ElvenSoul]

Got pics...to help the next person.

[SJgunguy24]

Did you install the disconnector spring from the OE FCG?

[cmace22]

as I pull the trigger, the sear never contacts the hammer, the hammer falls but only because the hammer falls off the disconnecter as the trigger is pulled so it feels like a LONG trigger pull.

If the correct parts are used your trigger shouldnt "fall" off the disconnecter when the trigger is pulled. The sole job of the disconnecter is to catch the hammer when the trigger is pulled and the action cycles, so I dont see how this would happen unless your missing a disco spring or incorrect FCG parts.

[Penzanse]

I started off on the wrong foot by using terms I was familiar with so I misnamed the parts. I am used to feeling and using non soviet equipment. When I first felt my AK trigger, it felt crude but still familiar. Then I feel this 308 and I think "this is NOT right!" Almost everyone I talked to said "that's how they are suppose to be!" I didn't think so. As I asked around, on and offline, I realized that most have no idea how the FGC works except for the hammer cock. The entirety of the trigger/disconecctor release of the hammer was unfamiliar territory, myself included.

This is my observation of the cycle, post hammer capture. If you think it works any different, please post your explanation. The trigger is pulled. The trigger assembly rotates on the axis pin. The rotation causes the disconecctor to contact the back of the hammer. The disconecctor spring starts to compress. (This would be the creep you feel once the take up has finished). Once the spring resistance is overcome by trigger pressure, the disconecctor "pushes the hammer off the front hook. (That's why it's a hook, so it can't just fall off). The hammer spring determines the take up resistance, the disconnector spring determines the break point of the trigger. I have very careful notes and pics so if you think it works any other way, bring a cogent argument. I heard or it's supposed to is NOT accepted. If you have ANY doubts, check out the link I posted. It's really wonky in the detail but you MUST check it out to understand how it works.

I used the disconector spring from the G2 kit. I tried the OE spring just to see what would happen. It took a while to figure out what was wrong.

Heres the proof in the pudding....my 308 trigger now WORKS like it is supposed to! I took a few thousandths off the bottom front of the disconnector which allowed the disconecctor to get closer to the hammer when it is cocked. My problem was that because the distance between the front hook and the back hook was too great, the disconnector could't make contact with the hammer when the trigger was pulled so that it took a loooong trigger pull for the hammer to fall off the front hook.

I appreciate all the help I received. I am greatful to ALL who tried to help. I only post this because I'm still getting PM's about what the problem may be and I see a number of ways people "think" it operates. In retrospect, I am surprised at how little I knew about this area.

[cmace22]

THIS is how it works.....

That fire control group operation you're describing is wrong. First the parts.
Trigger
Hammer
Disconnector

As the bolt carrier comes back it cocks the hammer. The hammer is then captured by the trigger hook. The disconnector is not engaged at this time. When you pull the trigger, the hammer is released from off of the trigger hook. As the trigger is pulled back the disconnector moves up into position. When the round is fired (trigger is still held back), the bolt carrier will cock the hammer back and the disconnector engages the hammer to hold it back. When you release the trigger (reset) the disconnector dis-engages and the hammer is caught by the trigger hook, ready for the next trigger pull.

Now, what is your problem?

Also, on the .308, the hammer must be "notched" to clear the center support. And, a long trigger pull is normal.

This is my observation of the cycle, post hammer capture. If you think it works any different, please post your explanation. The trigger is pulled. The trigger assembly rotates on the axis pin. The rotation causes the disconecctor to contact the back of the hammer. The disconecctor spring starts to compress. (This would be the creep you feel once the take up has finished). Once the spring resistance is overcome by trigger pressure, the disconecctor "pushes the hammer off the front hook. (That's why it's a hook, so it can't just fall off). The hammer spring determines the take up resistance, the disconnector spring determines the break point of the trigger. I have very careful notes and pics so if you think it works any other way, bring a cogent argument. I heard or it's supposed to is NOT accepted. If you have ANY doubts, check out the link I posted. It's really wonky in the detail but you MUST check it out to understand how it works.

We will assume for this explanation that the hammer is resting on the rear of the bolt head....

When the BCG is charged to the rear with your finger OFF the trigger the hammer is rotated rearward and caught by the trigger. The action returns to its forward locking position. The trigger is pulled releasing the hammer to contact the firing pin in the bolt head. As the BGC cycles after firing off a round (if you finger is still depressing the trigger) the hammer is rotated rearwards until it is caught by the DISCONNECTER. The disconnecter was moved into position due to the trigger being held back. After the trigger is released the disconnecter disengages and releases the hammer on to the trigger again. The disconnecter is only involved when the trigger is held to the back. Its sole purpose is to keep the hammer from following the bolt home when the trigger is held to the back. IT DOES NOTHING UNTIL THE TRIGGER IS TO THE REAR AND THE HAMMER IS CYCLED.

Creep is the amount of distance that you have to pull the trigger before it releases to the firing pin (NO disconnecter involved here)
Reset is the distance that the trigger has to move back after being pulled before the disconnecter releases the hammer over to the trigger. (This is the ONLY thing that a semi auto disconnecter does)
Trigger pull is the amount of pressure needed to release the hammer.

[Penzanse]

FUD

^^See. this is what I mean. All I hear is the reiteration of the BOLT cycle. Yes, the disconector will Catch the hammer IF you hold the trigger back. Do you hold the trigger back each time you fire? Are you saying that the SOLE purpose is to "catch" the hammer if you keep the trigger pulled to the rear? What purpose does that serve? what is being described is more or less a function check of the disconector. (I know why, do you?)Did you read the link? Try what I said, place a piece of paper between the disconecctor and the hammer. Pull the trigger VERY slowly. Tell me what you see and feel. Do you think "in Soviet Russia we make AK with useless part"?

Please, just try it. Once you do, then please explain why there is contact. Here's another, take the disconecctor out, then you will feel the difference.

Gawd....all you have to do is LOOK. I call FUD. Disagree or flame, but try the paper check first, then get back to me.

[Penzanse]

So, progress, you see the contact, did you see the spring compress? Using your logic, why do SOME units make contact? Does that make sense? DID YOU READ THE LINK? Look at the dimensions. If you work the numbers, the disconecctor has to make contact! SHEESH! I challenge you to find a PROPERLY working FGC that doesn't. I'll buy you a steak dinner if you do. Try this, don't hold the trigger back, what happens? The hammer still sets! TAKE THE DISCONNECTOR OUT AND CYCLE YOUR BOLT and see what happens. With the disconnector out, that is what my trigger felt like. On my FGC, the hook to hook gap is out of tolerance(too wide), yet I don't have hammer follow. What I had was no disconecctor contact.

I'm certainly no expert on AKs. I asked the question about FGC's as I wished to take advantage of tribal knowledge here. The info I was getting did not "jive". Then I read the link, I worked the numbers and clearances out. I'm an electrical engineer specializing in Field Engineering. It's is my job to figure out how russian stuff works. I launched Russian rockets for years. http://www.sea-launch.com/ . Unless you can come up with something other than meme based info, again I call FUD. I am not disparaging you or questioning your knowledge or ability, I see a discrepancy between the info being put out and ACTUAL operation.

[SJgunguy24]

The disconnector catches the hammer so the gun won't go into an uncontrolled FA operation when the trigger is held back.

That is the way it works on the AR semi auto platform as well.

[Penzanse]

The disconnector catches the hammer so the gun won't go into an uncontrolled FA operation when the trigger is held back.

That is the way it works on the AR semi auto platform as well.

I do not disagree with this. This is it's main purpose. I'm talking about the initial trigger pull, not the hammer catch. OK, this will be the last time I say this. Take the disconecctor out and set the hammer and pull the trigger. You will feel the difference.

I have 2 disconnectors. One is ground down so the proper clearance is there. With this one in, the trigger feels fine. With the unmodified disconnector, I have the looong trigger bad trigger feel.

I'm done, my 308 works like it should. I received good info from some, got FUD from most. Maybe my 2 Saigas are unique and their operation is different from yours. I've polished and tuned my trigger now for a good crisp pull and break. I do thank one and all. I know all info was sent in good faith and good will.