80% question: Can I use another individual's mill?

[jericho89]

1st rule of thumb. "Don't ask for legal advice on calguns!".

I would like to change that just a little...
1st rule of thumb. "don't make your **** public and you won't have eyes on you"

[popeye4]

"Never loan your tools." Advice my father gave me, and it isn't limited to finishing 80% receivers.....

[kcstott]

I would like to change that just a little...
1st rule of thumb. "don't make your **** public and you won't have eyes on you"

Yes this is true but some people can not go through life with out the approval of others.

[spyde12]

For those jumping on the 80% bandwagon, you need to accept the fact that this endeavor isn't about saving money. If that's your goal, stop. Do not proceed past Go. Sell the paper weight and buy a completed lower.

Speaking for myself. I got into it because it peaked my interest. I read several threads, watched YouTube videos and decided to invest the time and money to give it a go.

The first 2 are functional, but they won't win a beauty pageant. However, they're a reminder of where I began.

The satisfaction I get after completing one is priceless and being able to help others out by answering their questions in this forum is cool. That's how I learned and I'm just paying it forward.

Asking to borrow an armorers wrench, or assistance with replacing the muzzle in exchange for a pack of beers is one thing. Asking to borrow someone's tools to save yourself the upfront/initial investment is plain wrong.

Just my 0.02.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[Lostsheep]

You have not lived until you missed a z axis offset during a rapid move with a 3/4" endmill running 3200 rpm...

Does 6" below through the hard jaw at 400ipm / 10,000rpm with a 1/2" count as living?

[ar15barrels]

Does 6" below through the hard jaw at 400ipm / 10,000rpm with a 1/2" count as living?

Yes.

[Lostsheep]

I am going to preface this by saying I have zero intent of being the test case and I am not a lawyer.

I have read the letter many, many times and I do not believe that loaning tools and/or helping friends puts one into the definition of a manufacturer nor does one become "engaged in the business" provided it is not done for profit. The key phrasing is in bold below from the letter:

Section 921(a)(10),
defines a “manufacturer” as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution. As defined by section 921(a)(21)(A), the term “engaged in the business” means, as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, “a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of
the firearms manufactured.”

ETA: Later in the letter they reiterate the relationship between business and the need for a license by stating:

Once the manufacturing processes have occurred and a frame or receiver has been made, however, to require licensing as a manufacturer, a person must still be engaged in the business through the “sale or distribution” of the firearms manufactured...

Later in the letter under "Use of Manufacturing MAchines, Tools , or Equipment" they consistently use the term "business" or "person engaged in business" when defining who must have a license and who must follow the GCA requirements. Friends helping one another does not meet the ATF's own deliberately articulated definition of "engaged in business" and therefore I don't believe this applies to individuals who are not profiting.

I know there are those here who will flame me for this interpretation as you have done it before with the insinuations that I couldn't read or that I hadn't read every letter I could find.

Again, I am not going to risk my business in any way shape or form by being a test case because frankly it is a chance and I just don't think there is enough money in it to justify taking chances. Biomedical and tech pay way more than walk-ins off the street ever will.

But I disagree with the own tools own property interpretation / paradigm around here; the problem is doing it for money.

Flame on...

[Not76]

I agree with lostsheep, agree too that someone will pay to be the test case. Luckily I've already learned my lesson lending tools out, so won't be the test subject. It's not clear to me that these laws say its illegal to lend tools. It brings up a whole list of questions that lawyers would have to weed thru too: Borrowed flashlight, workbench? Everything in and about my garage including the slab is a tool so just the mill or jig is not the only thing i recognize when tool is said. Two people in one home can't share tools; they need two seperate garages with seperate electricity and tools? Wife and I, whats mine is hers; can we not build own rifles with the same tools? This law like most gun laws was put together poorly and is unclear on the effect it has outside of business. Making money off building guns in any way without a license is the clear no no, the clear intention behind this law. If a dollar appears in your hand you are toast for sure. I don't recomend anyone push their luck but I don't recomend grabbing your ankles either. I build 80% and featureless not because its cheap or I like goofy stocks but because it's the American thing to do in my mind without pushing your luck too far.