Markings on a Home-Built 80% to Make It Legal for Transfer?

[ke6guj]

(C) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer;
(D) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business; and
(E) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

I would like to know how a law that states how "licensed manufacturers" must mark firearms applies to "unlicensed makers"?

[Rorge Retson]

I would like to know how a law that states how "licensed manufacturers" must mark firearms applies to "unlicensed makers"?

Don't expect an answer as he appears to be very sensitive to this question.

If he does answer, be prepared for lots of hostility and defensiveness.

[Quiet]

27 CFR 479.102 (a)... "You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:"
The term "manufacturer" equates to being licensed and the term "maker of a firearm" equates to being unlicensed.

Which means under Federal and CA laws, you are required to engrave the pistol receiver prior to selling or gifting it.

Markings must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.
Markings must use Roman letters (A, B, C, etc.) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, etc).

Markings must include:
1) Serial Numbers (can not be a name, must contain numerals) [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(1) and PC 27530(a)]
2) Model [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(2)(i) and PC 27530(a)]
3) Caliber [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(2)(ii)]
4) Manufacturer's name [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(2)(iii) and PC 27530(a)]
5) City & State where the Manufacturer is located [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(2)(iv)]

Since you made the receiver, you are the manufacturer/maker of a firearm.
So, your legal name (first & last) or the name of the corporation/trust that made the firearm and city/state needs to be engraved on it.



27 CFR 479.102
How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and
(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases).
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

Penal Code 27530
No person shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership in a handgun unless the firearm bears either:
(a) The name of the manufacturer, the manufacturer's make or model, and a manufacturer's serial number assigned to that firearm.
(b) The identification number or mark assigned to the firearm by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 23910.

[sarabellum]

27 CFR 479.102 (a)... "You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:"
The term "manufacturer" equates to being licensed and the term "maker of a firearm" equates to being unlicensed.

Which means under Federal and CA laws, you are required to engrave the pistol receiver prior to selling or gifting it.

Markings must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch.
Markings must use Roman letters (A, B, C, etc.) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, etc).

Markings must include:
1) Serial Numbers (can not be a name, must contain numerals) [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(1) and PC 27530(a)]
2) Model [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(2)(i) and PC 27530(a)]
3) Caliber [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(2)(ii)]
4) Manufacturer's name [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(2)(iii) and PC 27530(a)]
5) City & State where the Manufacturer is located [27 CFR 479.102 (a)(2)(iv)]

Since you made the receiver, you are the manufacturer/maker of a firearm.
So, your legal name (first & last) or the name of the corporation/trust that made the firearm and city/state needs to be engraved on it.

Penal Code 27530
No person shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership in a handgun unless the firearm bears either:
(a) The name of the manufacturer, the manufacturer's make or model, and a manufacturer's serial number assigned to that firearm.
(b) The identification number or mark assigned to the firearm by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 23910.

As the following memorandum explains from Michel Associatesengaged in the business of

[Quiet]

BATFE says a "maker of a firearm" is an unlicensed person and a "manufacturer" is a licensed person.

BATFE first said it [27 CFR 479.102] applies to unlicensed persons (individual, corporation, trust) that makes a Title 2 firearms (AOW, DD, NS, SBR, SBS).
Which is why they require an unlicensed person to engrave their info (name, city, state) onto any Title 2 firearm they make.

BATFE then said it applies to unlicensed persons that make a Title 1 firearm and transfer ownership of that Title 1 firearm to another person.

[pklin1297]

These same arguments, either for, or against the need to engrave has been said too many times on this forum, without a consensus other than that for some reason, BATFE, a "federal agency", can choose to interpret the federal regulations they operate by however they feel like it seems, and can change at any point depending on their agenda.

[Rorge Retson]

I think the question on the table right now is does the "Manufacturer's" name (or name of the individual who made the firearm) need to be on the firearm in order to be legal, or just "a name" in the space normally reserved for the manufacturer's name.

And I do not believe we have an answer yet to that particular question.

[sarabellum]

BATFE says a "maker of a firearm" is an unlicensed person and a "manufacturer" is a licensed person.

BATFE first said it [27 CFR 479.102] applies to unlicensed persons (individual, corporation, trust) that makes a Title 2 firearms (AOW, DD, NS, SBR, SBS).
Which is why they require an unlicensed person to engrave their info (name, city, state) onto any Title 2 firearm they make.

BATFE then said it applies to unlicensed persons that make a Title 1 firearm and transfer ownership of that Title 1 firearm to another person.

No. The entire framework of 27 CFR part 479 of the regulations focuses on commercial manufacture of NFA firearms. The ATF expressly refers persons to the statute indicating individual hobbyist need not be licensed.

Nor, does the hobbyist have to follow the tax stamp set of regulations, which include the registering of the firearm (with a serial number) made under Part 479. Id. The "ATF Guidebook, Importation and Verification of FirearmsSubpart G machine guns, destructive devices and certain other firearms under the provisions of the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. Chapter 53).

26 USC Chapter 53 subchapters A, B, C, D are devoted to "Machine Guns, Destructive Devices, and Certain Other Firearms." specifically limits the NFA to the firearms which the firearm's enthusiast community calls NFA weapons, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, machine guns, and silencers, exclusively. The OP is a hobbyist. The OP's AR15 handgun is not included in the NFA's definition of "firearm" (i.e. short barreled rifle) for which an application, approval, and serial numbering are required under the NFA.

The NFA will apply ONLY to the OP should he/she want to add a shoulder stock or convert the weapon to fully automatic, for which he/she must seek prior approval, tax stamp, and serial numbering.

As already indicated in the memo and case cited by Michel Associates, "Manufacturer," "maker," and "distributor" are terms of art limited to a particular genre or ejusdem generis, the business of selling firearms. Hobbyists are not commercial manufacturers for purposes of the GCA.

The following express discussion by the ATF on receiver blanksFirearm manufacturers marking requirements)," is limited in the entire part to commerce in weapons and ammunition by licensed manufacturers and importers, which as stated above pertains exclusively to those individuals and entities engaged in the business of manufacturing and/or importing non- NFA weapons. None of these definitions apply to the OP. The ATF encourages but does not require personal hobbyists to add identifying data to a home finished 80% receiver. The ATF requires identifying data for the home made receiver upon lawful transfer. Therefore, the OP, in the event he/she wants to transfer the pistol, under federal law is required to add identifying data like a serial number.

[kcstott]

Don't expect an answer as he appears to be very sensitive to this question.

If he does answer, be prepared for lots of hostility and defensiveness.

If by sensitive meaning, trying to explain the same code to people that refuse to google the code, Refuse to do their own home work, refuse to read the stickies.... sure call me sensitive. I'm tired of having to spoon feed people. I posted a link, I expect some due diligence on the receiving end.


All the information you guys asked for was in the sticky i linked.

And my comment was missing the first part of the sentence.

the saying goes like this.

"I can show you how, But I can't learn it for you" Think about that for a minute....

When you post info, links a what not just to have someone come back and argue a point that was put to rest by the CalGuns Attorney in 2008 is pretty damn ridiculous. You guys need to take five minutes and read the full link, follow the link in the thread to the letter of Opinion, then let it all soak in for a few minutes.

[kcstott]

I think the question on the table right now is does the "Manufacturer's" name (or name of the individual who made the firearm) need to be on the firearm in order to be legal, or just "a name" in the space normally reserved for the manufacturer's name.

And I do not believe we have an answer yet to that particular question.

well here's the deal... there are laws in which govern legal names, business names, and fictitious business names, and or stage names.

the letter of the law is quite clear the engraving must include the manufactures name. Now if you can prove that Joe blow inc, or Up yours ATF & co. can be legally associated to you, via a public announcement of fictitious name status. sure you're good to go. but if you just marked all willy nilly then no you are not, But this also begs the question of does the FFL doing the transfer give a damn?

you asked if it was required, I say yes based on my experience working with business regulations Business names and such,

You did not however ask if it mattered.

[Nathan Krynn]

The BATFE has been very clear on this. Even in the 2004 Hoffman determination letter it states (link at bottom):

Also for your information a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 cfr 478.92

I am not sure if they could state it more clearly.

Notice they call the nonlicensee the manufacturer and also state clearly it must be marked as 478.92, including name.

Never once has the BATFE said that you only need a serial number. They have all ways said you need to mark it as a manufacturer (as you did manufacture it) including a serial number, never have they said only a serial number. Never have they added all this "only applies to licensed FFL's" stuff in regards to marking 80% firearms to make them leagl to transfer. The BATFE has covered this exact subject so many times it not funny and never once have they wavered, all ways they have said mark it as a manufacturer (later updating a nonlicensee to maker). Never once has the BATFE determined you can engrave a fictitious name, they all ways said legal name. I would love to see a legal document to say different.

If you can go into a courtroom and win a case that you legal name is "down with the man arms" or "last name arms" then by all means your good. But you better have a trust or FFL to match that or its not legal for transfer.

Engrave whats on your drivers license or legal abbreviation unless you can show something the BATFE wrote that specifically allows you can engrave a fictitious name and not internet conjecture that you can. I would love to see a BATFE determination saying differently as I engrave all my personal home made firearms for my home insurance rider. I would like nothing better to have "last name Arms" then my legal name.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE-AMD-65-Manufacture-Marking-2004-11-09.pdf

[liber]

The BATFE has been very clear on this. Even in the 2004 Hoffman determination letter it states (link at bottom):

Also for your information a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 cfr 478.92

Which is actually what kcstott was trying to explain before he was dog piled upon...LOL

[kcstott]

Which is actually what kcstott was trying to explain before he was dog piled upon...LOL

Well I come from and Abused childhood so nothing new

[kcstott]

Not meaning to be a dick, when I asked the OP what the Comrades (progressive pols) were trying to foist upon you I was actually curious. Are they wanting an 80% receiver to be "registered" upon completion?

to answer you question. Yes we have nimrods in the capitol with wording on a bill that basically say any unfinished firearm receiver (don't quote me on the exact text of the law) needs a voluntary request for serial number and a fee paid of course. it's just more BS from DeLeon that friggin whack job will not stop.

[sarabellum]

The BATFE has been very clear on this. Even in the 2004 Hoffman determination letter it states (link at bottom):

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BAT...2004-11-09.pdf

As I stated above in my prior post, the ATF only requires and can only require engraving of identifying data on NFA firearms (e.g. machine guns, sbr, sbs, and silencers) OR firearms made by a business entity engaged in commercial firearms manufacturing. http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BAT...2004-11-09.pdf This Hoffman ATF letter expressly limits the mandator serial numbering to NFA weapons for which he/she consulted the ATF. See question 11 in the following ATF guide: https://www.atf.gov/file/3871/download The Hoffman ATF letter repeats that home builders for personal use need only add the identifying information upon transfer.

OP asked what information is required to be imprinted upon the firearm upon his/her attempt to sell it. This is THE ANSWER:

I. FEDERAL INFORMATION REQUIREMENT IMPOSED UPON THE FFL DEALER INVOLVED IN A TRANSFERotherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473). Form 4473, Section D, requires "manufacturer/importers name, make, model, serial number, type, and caliber." https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download These are the requirements for the FFL dealer to transfer under federal law. If the OP wants to transfer that handgun, he/she will have to give the FFL a frame with a serial number on it.

That matter concluded, now we turn to California law.

II. CALIFORNIA INFORMATION REQUIREMENT PLACED ON THE SELLER AND FFL DEALER PRIOR TO TRANSFER OF A HANDGUN
As Quiet so aptly explained SEVERAL POST PREVIOUSLY WHICH PEOPLE ARE IGNORING, Cal. Penal Code 27530 provides the rule for sale/transfer of a firearm:
No person shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership in a handgun unless the firearm bears either:
(a) The name of the manufacturer, the manufacturer's make or model, and a manufacturer's serial number assigned to that firearm.
(b) The identification number or mark assigned to the firearm by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 23910.

Unlike federal law, California law does not require type or caliber. I reiterate a home builder of firearms for personal use is not required to place serial numbers on a firearm, unless he/she wishes to transfer the firearm at which time the above information must be placed upon the firearm's receiver. Can we now stop beating a dead horse and make a sticky of my posts?