Making The Shot

[gun fu]

Food for thought, maybe out of context. But the teaches me to willingness to act. Mindset is the greater question here..

" He who hesitates, meditates in the horizontal position" Edmund K. Parker , Founder American Kenpo

[9mmepiphany]

" He who hesitates, meditates in the horizontal position" Edmund K. Parker , Founder American Kenpo

I've never heard Ed called Edmund before...must be for a more authoritative tome

[Horton Fenty]

Demonstrated ability is a pretty easy thing to obtain through practice. The question of if a person is capable of employing that demonstrated ability under extreme stress I would say is unknown until it actually happens.

Which ones more important? I'd say demonstrated ability. What does it matter if your cool like Fonzie but are one of those people responsible for the holes in the ceiling of your local indoor range.

[d4v0s]

I have no experience whatsoever in tactical situations, but I do have 25+ years experience in making the shot when the buzzer goes off in competition situations coupled with a lot of practical hunting experience.

The question I have to ask here is, does it matter whether you feel confident that when the time comes for action that you are capable of making the shot required because you have no question in your ability to do so, or does it matter more that you have been there before?

I do not ever want to have to do this if I do not have to but I know one thing for sure, I will not be worrying about whether I can make the shot, I will only be worrying about whether it is the right time to take the shot or not!

Again, my question here is, "is it more important to know what it is to do so, or is it more important to be able to do so without question when the time arises"?

i only ask this on open forum because I know I am capable and am I ready and prepared to do this when the time arises, but doubt always clouds the situation and the last thing I want to face is the question of whether I can do what is right when the situation arises.

Thanks in advance to listening to me here. Anyone with demonstrated capability knows they are capable, the question is, can you do so "properly" when the time comes.

During a break in two years ago, I completely froze up and could not manipulate the slide on my 45. I kept staring at my phone in my left hand with 911 dialed on the screen ready to hit send... And then kept trying to hold the phone and chamber a round at the same time.

All the while a 260 pound, 6'2" perp broke in through a window and gained access to one of the bedrooms.

When he walked out in the living room, I recognized him and I was suddenly able to think again. The fact that I completely lost my ability to act told me that I could not take a life. Interestingly after that day I stopped CCWing. No point, I am not capable of using my firearms to take a life. Nor am I an aggressor who can run to violence and stop something like a break in.

The perp turned out to be my brothers friend grabbing a shower before prom.. (he was living with us and didn't have a key to the house.) The fact still remains that I personally know that I cant act under that kind of stress. I stopped going to IDPA matches because all the people around me act like a bunch of rambos. None of them even know if they could hold a gun in actual violence, and their confidence just reminds me of how I used to think. I think IDPA and competition is a great tool, but I have to admit that many people think they are little soldiers of fortune after a match or two.

I personally think alot of cops do not know this about themselves until they are in an actual fire fight. They can go years without even drawing their weapon, and when IT happens, they are slow to react or simply cannot react. A true warrior is someone I can respect, our soldiers who perform in combat, and then willingly walk into it again knowing how it feels to hold a gun in "actual" defense... Its something I cannot do, and I still very much respect those that do ccw, and those that stand for us (military and leos.)

But I believe (before you flame me look at that those three words.. I believe... me, I not you) that no amount of competition or training will make you able to react. Nothing can prepare you for the actual moment in time where your hands tell your brain... "we are going hot, are we really prepared to take a life today". You will not understand how true that thought process is until you have lived it. Its ****ing terrifying.

If you are preparing for such events though, I think you cannot beat competition and IDPA (and a pistol course every now and then) because they will help you to make hits on the move, and develop your senses of when to engage, and what to do when you click and it doesnt go bang. I shot a sig P220 for a year in IDPA that had jamming issues, I could tap, rack, bang so fast the RO wouldnt even hardly notice it... How does that quote go? Making hits on target with your feet on the move... Shooter, everything else is target practice.

[Matt P]

Interesting tone with this discussion here on a topic covered many time before. I certainly like seeing such thoughtful discussion.
Seems no experts here with this discussion....Hmmmm...Telling.

But real.

The mere fact you are choosing to have and or engage in this discussion right here is doing much to help you.
Bob Hostetter said it well. Having skill and confidence is seen in its biggest value as knowing when or not to get involved. Remember, choosing to get involved can still risk the safety of possibly those around you.
I have enough experience to know I will try everything that I can to just get away, or not be involved.
Once bullets start launching from barrels all it takes is one lucky shot to rid me of all my training and time spent in development to be more confident and a better Instructor.
Yes,...... The knowledge to know when to do nothing is valuable.
It is my sense that all of us can do as much as one can to prepare for that one time we hope that never happens.
Not on the range in competition or practice. That builds confidence so you know what you can and can not do with a firearm.

To save your life or someone else s different skills are needed.

It is my sense and what I offer students that 90% of your effectiveness in a fight for your life will come from whats in your head and not in your hand and or time spent on the range. Remember, those efforts result in confidence and experience. They do not automatically transmit into you being a better gunfighter in a life and death situation.
Sure, I want you on my side going into a gun fight. Those who have spent time on the range. But I also know that is only a small part of the equation of being effective in a gun fight.
I do not know this from having been in so many, because I have been in none. I have been fortunate to have entertained an interest in the topic and have talked directly to many who have been.
So I would mimic what they have told me.... Skills are important, but having clearly defined your willingness to defend your life or a loved ones at any cost is the more important aspect.
This means more than just accepting that you are willing to do that. It means taking the time to see your yourself in any fight for your life. See yourself being effective in this fight in your mind. You engage and the attacker responds to your shots. He is down. See yourself acting responsibly along with maintaining an awareness of your immediate area. See yourself scanning/looking for additional threats. Remove that weapon from control of the attacker if safe to do so, after all you do not want him to continue the fight. See your self when you know you are in control of that situation calling 911. Be sure of what you will tell dispatch. Give the basic info you need to. More importantly to get that call completed and the phone down on the ground if you can but still connected. You do not want to be distracted by the 911 operator. Better to have the phone on and them hearing you tell that subject "stay on the ground" "stop trying to kill me" or what YOU choose to say.
You see, the beauty of our minds is how we can engage in thought to help equip ourselves with a series of choices that we can think of while comfortable and safe.
Why in the world would you wait for that event to happen and expect to make your best choices?
So Geoff, just by asking the questions you are is doing WAYYYYYY more than many who are either in harms way, or have been through it.
So many do not ask those questions.
By you doing so demonstrates an effort to do more than just wait for that event to happen to see what you are made of.

To suggest you will not know what you will do until it happens seems an easy way of doing nothing to prepare for it.

Why accept that?

I don't.... I think now. I put myself through all sorts of scenarios.
It is all about choices. I choose to be a fighter. I choose to survive. I know I will do so when I need to.
Not because of the time I spent shooting.
But because I made that choice in my mind. And everyday in some small way I prepare for that event in my mind.

There is sooo much more I talk about as it relates to this topic, but I am a miserable typist.

All the above my opinion, based on what I believe....I am no expert on this topic either. My apologies if I suggest otherwise.

[GeoffLinder]

Interesting tone with this discussion here on a topic covered many time before. I certainly like seeing such thoughtful discussion.
Seems no experts here with this discussion....Hmmmm...Telling.

But real.

The mere fact you are choosing to have and or engage in this discussion right here is doing much to help you.
Bob Hostetter said it well. Having skill and confidence is seen in its biggest value as knowing when or not to get involved. Remember, choosing to get involved can still risk the safety of possibly those around you.
I have enough experience to know I will try everything that I can to just get away, or not be involved.
Once bullets start launching from barrels all it takes is one lucky shot to rid me of all my training and time spent in development to be more confident and a better Instructor.
Yes,...... The knowledge to know when to do nothing is valuable.
It is my sense that all of us can do as much as one can to prepare for that one time we hope that never happens.
Not on the range in competition or practice. That builds confidence so you know what you can and can not do with a firearm.

To save your life or someone else s different skills are needed.

It is my sense and what I offer students that 90% of your effectiveness in a fight for your life will come from whats in your head and not in your hand and or time spent on the range. Remember, those efforts result in confidence and experience. They do not automatically transmit into you being a better gunfighter in a life and death situation.
Sure, I want you on my side going into a gun fight. Those who have spent time on the range. But I also know that is only a small part of the equation of being effective in a gun fight.
I do not know this from having been in so many, because I have been in none. I have been fortunate to have entertained an interest in the topic and have talked directly to many who have been.
So I would mimic what they have told me.... Skills are important, but having clearly defined your willingness to defend your life or a loved ones at any cost is the more important aspect.
This means more than just accepting that you are willing to do that. It means taking the time to see your yourself in any fight for your life. See yourself being effective in this fight in your mind. You engage and the attacker responds to your shots. He is down. See yourself acting responsibly along with maintaining an awareness of your immediate area. See yourself scanning/looking for additional threats. Remove that weapon from control of the attacker if safe to do so, after all you do not want him to continue the fight. See your self when you know you are in control of that situation calling 911. Be sure of what you will tell dispatch. Give the basic info you need to. More importantly to get that call completed and the phone down on the ground if you can but still connected. You do not want to be distracted by the 911 operator. Better to have the phone on and them hearing you tell that subject "stay on the ground" "stop trying to kill me" or what YOU choose to say.
You see, the beauty of our minds is how we can engage in thought to help equip ourselves with a series of choices that we can think of while comfortable and safe.
Why in the world would you wait for that event to happen and expect to make your best choices?
So Geoff, just by asking the questions you are is doing WAYYYYYY more than many who are either in harms way, or have been through it.
So many do not ask those questions.
By you doing so demonstrates an effort to do more than just wait for that event to happen to see what you are made of.

To suggest you will not know what you will do until it happens seems an easy way of doing nothing to prepare for it.

Why accept that?

I don't.... I think now. I put myself through all sorts of scenarios.
It is all about choices. I choose to be a fighter. I choose to survive. I know I will do so when I need to.
Not because of the time I spent shooting.
But because I made that choice in my mind. And everyday in some small way I prepare for that event in my mind.

There is sooo much more I talk about as it relates to this topic, but I am a miserable typist.

All the above my opinion, based on what I believe....I am no expert on this topic either. My apologies if I suggest otherwise.

Thank you, very good food for thought. I have always tried to think through what will happen if the need ever arises and run down the sequences of actions I will need to take. One thing I have consistently fallen back on when I consider this is to NOT try to be a hero, just maintain a defensive position if the situation allows, retreat to a safe place, get your phone working for you, stay small in visibility and maintain awareness without exposing yourself until the situation is hopefully resolved by means other than lethal force.

My hope in this thought pattern is that I will prevail through defensive action rather than through offensive action. The scenarios I have run through my head many times over the years I have spent becoming a fairly accomplished pistolero always have me visualizing taking cover, making sure my family/loved ones do so also and using my brain and my phone to ensure I don't have to make that fateful decision about making/taking "the" shot(s).

Hunting has taught what making a decision to take life is like and from what I gather from talking to people that have had to deal with this in real world situations, the decision involved in hunting is small potatoes in comparison.

As I originally thought it would seem that mental preparedness and clarity of thought are going to be most important. At least I won't be cluttering my mind wondering how to manipulate a firearm with a decent level of skill. Competition has drilled that into an autonomic level.

But Bob Hostetter's comment about competition training you to take shots beyond your ability has been a big eye-opener, much appreciation for the level of insight there. I have been thinking about that one a good bit since I read that reply.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed here so far. Some great insight and data points for contemplation have been gleaned.

Again, keep it coming folks, I am finding this very worthwhile and I hope others are too.

[PhoenixTacticalSolutions]

This is very true. I have been thinking about this as well. I see vids of 8 shot retreats etc and if that were done in a SD situation my guess is there will be trouble in the court.

Sometimes more rounds are required to "stop the threat" than one or a controlled pair...could be 3...could be 5...could be 1...no magic number. Getting accustomed to only firing one or 2 rounds per target in a stage may condition you to do just that in a defensive shooting...and no more. Some drills are prefaced with the idea that the bad guy is continuing his attack and coming at you.

There are accounts of perps taking multiple rounds and not stopping. As you know, handguns are not magical death rays. Approximately 70% of those shot survive. So if your adversary, who is either a determined fighter, on drugs, wearing multiple layers of clothing or overweight suffers a shot which will ultimately prove lethal, it does not necessarily mean that he is incapacitated.

It comes down to incapacitation versus lethality. If the whole encounter takes a few seconds, a bad guy who has taken an ultimately lethal shot but keeps up his attack for even 5 more seconds could turn the tables before he meets his maker.

What's the alternative? Firing a round or 2 and assessing?

Some are conditioned to go down when just grazed by a round, because that's what we see in movies.

[GeoffLinder]

Sometimes more rounds are required to "stop the threat" than one or a controlled pair...could be 3...could be 5...could be 1...no magic number. Getting accustomed to only firing one or 2 rounds per target in a stage may condition you to do just that in a defensive shooting...and no more. Some drills are prefaced with the idea that the bad guy is continuing his attack and coming at you.

There are accounts of perps taking multiple rounds and not stopping. As you know, handguns are not magical death rays. Approximately 70% of those shot survive. So if your adversary, who is either a determined fighter, on drugs, wearing multiple layers of clothing or overweight suffers a shot which will ultimately prove lethal, it does not necessarily mean that he is incapacitated.

It comes down to incapacitation versus lethality. If the whole encounter takes a few seconds, a bad guy who has taken an ultimately lethal shot but keeps up his attack for even 5 more seconds could turn the tables before he meets his maker.

What's the alternative? Firing a round or 2 and assessing?

Some are conditioned to go down when just grazed by a round, because that's what we see in movies.

A friend of mine witnessed a shooting on the Bay Bridge a number of years back where the perp had wrapped himself in cellophane to compress his upper body and limit hydrostatic shock. The responding CHP officers put almost 20 rounds of .40SW in him before he stopped. He was continuing to shoot while he took massive numbers of center mass hits. My friend who watched it from passenger seat of car stuck in traffic about 20 feet away said perp went to slide lock on his Glock and kept pointing it at the CHP officers and trying to pull trigger for quite a while after he ran dry, then slowly went to his knees and fell forward.

Chilling experience and one that I am not letting slip from my mind in the context of my competition training where you put two per paper as a rule. Have to assume any target in a real world situation is like steel, not paper, keep shooting until it falls even if you are "calling" your shots.

[midvalleyshooter]

Jeff Cooper's "Principles of Personal Defense" is a good read and applies directly to the subject of this thread.

Here is a link to a PDF: http://www.twistedwiretactical.com/T...lf_Defense.pdf

Here is the last paragraph:

George Patton told his officers, "Don't worry about
your flanks. Let the enemy worry about his flanks." It is
high time for society to stop worrying about the criminal,
and to let the criminal start worrying about society. And by
"society" I mean you.


Like the OP I have not "Seen the Elephant" but I can shoot a little bit. So I will follow this.

Best regards,
Keith

[ramzar]

There were some good lessons in the threads below that included related/linked articles:

The rules of a gunfight

Mindset, training, courage and staying in the fight

Note: Officer Murphy had some well-deserved applause directed at him last night.

[PhoenixTacticalSolutions]

Good point! Similar accounts with multiple .45 caliber rounds and other handgun calibers.

Not to hijack this thread but food for thought for those obsessed with any handgun caliber. It comes down to what YOU can shoot well and most importantly shot placement.

A friend of mine witnessed a shooting on the Bay Bridge a number of years back where the perp had wrapped himself in cellophane to compress his upper body and limit hydrostatic shock. The responding CHP officers put almost 20 rounds of .40SW in him before he stopped. He was continuing to shoot while he took massive numbers of center mass hits. My friend who watched it from passenger seat of car stuck in traffic about 20 feet away said perp went to slide lock on his Glock and kept pointing it at the CHP officers and trying to pull trigger for quite a while after he ran dry, then slowly went to his knees and fell forward.

Chilling experience and one that I am not letting slip from my mind in the context of my competition training where you put two per paper as a rule. Have to assume any target in a real world situation is like steel, not paper, keep shooting until it falls even if you are "calling" your shots.

[Brian1979]

Sometimes more rounds are required to "stop the threat" than one or a controlled pair...could be 3...could be 5...could be 1...no magic number. Getting accustomed to only firing one or 2 rounds per target in a stage may condition you to do just that in a defensive shooting...and no more. Some drills are prefaced with the idea that the bad guy is continuing his attack and coming at you.

There are accounts of perps taking multiple rounds and not stopping. As you know, handguns are not magical death rays. Approximately 70% of those shot survive. So if your adversary, who is either a determined fighter, on drugs, wearing multiple layers of clothing or overweight suffers a shot which will ultimately prove lethal, it does not necessarily mean that he is incapacitated.

It comes down to incapacitation versus lethality. If the whole encounter takes a few seconds, a bad guy who has taken an ultimately lethal shot but keeps up his attack for even 5 more seconds could turn the tables before he meets his maker.

What's the alternative? Firing a round or 2 and assessing?

Some are conditioned to go down when just grazed by a round, because that's what we see in movies.

Good point. Although in court it might go a different direction. I am no expert on this but justifying multiple shots I imagine will be difficult.

[GeoffLinder]

Good point. Although in court it might go a different direction. I am no expert on this but justifying multiple shots I imagine will be difficult.

Best response for this I have heard was "I was in fear for my life and I kept shooting until I was sure I was no longer in danger". That would seem to me to be about all you can say to this.

[ramzar]

Consider low-light practice/training and carrying an EDC small/powerful flashlight (don't shine it on white walls or mirrors which can cause temporary self-induced blindness). Even if it's daylight it can be dark inside.

Also, practicing with your self-defense ammo. On mine, the +P+ 9mm ammo has a noticeable kick but very manageable, extremely accurate and low muzzle flash (which can blind you at night).

[LMT4ME]

Jeff Cooper developed Cooper color code of awareness. I think he had it right in that you always need situational awareness 100% of the time.


Combat Mindset—The Cooper Color Code

The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense.[5] In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:
The color code, as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Cooper, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Cooper did not claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state.[6]
White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."
Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person".