Making The Shot

[GeoffLinder]

I have no experience whatsoever in tactical situations, but I do have 25+ years experience in making the shot when the buzzer goes off in competition situations coupled with a lot of practical hunting experience.

The question I have to ask here is, does it matter whether you feel confident that when the time comes for action that you are capable of making the shot required because you have no question in your ability to do so, or does it matter more that you have been there before?

I do not ever want to have to do this if I do not have to but I know one thing for sure, I will not be worrying about whether I can make the shot, I will only be worrying about whether it is the right time to take the shot or not!

Again, my question here is, "is it more important to know what it is to do so, or is it more important to be able to do so without question when the time arises"?

i only ask this on open forum because I know I am capable and am I ready and prepared to do this when the time arises, but doubt always clouds the situation and the last thing I want to face is the question of whether I can do what is right when the situation arises.

Thanks in advance to listening to me here. Anyone with demonstrated capability knows they are capable, the question is, can you do so "properly" when the time comes.

[Brian1979]

Impossible to know until it happens. Those of us who shoot regularly in situations like competition which force multiple positions and induce some stress will have a better chance. Those who take formal training and can afford to do so often should be just fine as well. I think the argument always comes up which is best, training or competition? Both accomplish the same thing but I think there is one guy on here that takes a million classes which must cost thousands per month. Even then it doesnt appear those skills will ever be tested and practiced which I think competition would offer for a huge cost savings. Other then that I dont see how class takers will ever get enough practice in between classes. Class after class and absorbing all those opinions doesnt in my mind make much sense. Once you understand the fundamentals its time to go apply those but jumping into another class would confuse me and create contradictions more then help me.

I have recently started switching gears and dipped my toes into IDPA and am pondering taking a formal class. At the end of the day if you can shoot under pressure this is as close as we are going to get to preparing for the real thing. If you shoot often and stay sharp on your skills then our chances increase and so long as we are faster and more accurate then the other we have an advantage. I just set up the IDPA classifer yesterday and ran it for the first time ever. I think this would be a perfect level playing ground for everyone to see where they are at. It tests every aspect involved with shooting and gun handling in a way that I think is comfortable for the class takers as well. I realize USPSA turns people off with the gear involved and the speed over accuracy aspect. I do think it is necessary to practice speed and accuracy will develop and USPSA accomplishes that for me. I scored 143 seconds first time then ran the last stage again and dropped to 123 seconds. I would imagine running the entire thing again would get me below 120.

At the end of the day its going to be about practice. Who cares what you choose but do something, especially if you have a CCW. Take classes or join competitions doesnt so much matter to me at this point but its what is done in between that counts. I to have been second guessing my abilities because of the tactical class vs competitions hence my recent switch to IDPA and opening my mind to a class. I have to say that so far I am pleased with my switch and at the end of the day if you can shoot then its all the same. There may be some things to learn tactically but thats the easy part vs the ability to shoot well.

[ElDub1950]

I have to think both are equally important and neither has much value without the other.

Being mentally prepared to take the shot is far more difficult to train for than being physically prepared to make the shot.

I've taken a couple of tactical training classes that may help if the time comes, but I need to take more. Economics limited me to 2 classes last year. Hopefully I can do more this year.

I've also been trying to make it to some IDPA matches because it adds a little bit of pressure to shooting and provides some practice in moving and shooting and building awareness of cover etc. And all that helps a little too.

There's a lot to be said for playing situational awareness mind games - such as when you go into a restaurant you scope out areas that give you the best view of danger areas (register) and have an escape route - or running through scenarios in your head - what would you do if there was a break-in in the middle of the night .. do you know every direction it's safe to shoot from each location in your house .. those kinds of things.

But I don't think there's anything the most of us can do to be 100% certain we will do the right thing at the right time. But I try to practice things that can help.

[ramzar]

Indecision kills and sometimes even a bad decision is better than vacillation. Target discrimination is huge. Positively ID the threat and then let your technical skills take over.

[Bob Hostetter]

The concept of knowing if you have the skills to make "the shot" are almost as important as knowing when you don't have the skills to make "the shot". And both are secondary to knowing if you should even take "the shot". Being emotionally able to take "the shot" should have been worked out a long time ago.

Competition encrouages you to take shots that are beyond your ability and most tactical training encrouages you to take shots that you probably shouldn't from a legal perspective. The most important tools you bring to any conflict are mental discipline and intelligence.

[GeoffLinder]

Thanks all, some very good stuff here.

I am pretty certain I am emotionally able, but I really hope I do not ever to find that out. Making the decision to kill when hunting is one thing, this is entirely another. The thing I have done over the years is run scenarios in my head so at least I have done some of the thinking in advance.

I know I am physically able to make any shot I decide to take so there will be no indecision on whether I have the skill. Yes, vacillation will probably be the only issue to work out, but at least I won't be vacillating on skill, just deciding what indicates that the buzzer just went off, freeing my mind for making a tactical decision.

I also agree with situational awareness being very important. Here in CA it may be even more important than shooting skill because seldom will you be armed in public, so being aware slightly in advance that you might have to take action will matter more compared to any specific skill set.

Keep it coming folks, I am not here to start a debate on competition versus training, just to get some new data points from anyone who can contribute them.

Thanks again!

[ramzar]

Paul Howe of CSAT said some useful things on mindset:

• "You have to be willing to take a life to save a life. If you can't do that you can't cultivate a good combat mindset".
• "Be prepared to kill with ruthless efficiency and do it on demand".
• "You've got to keep your tactics simple. A few set of tactics that work across a bunch of situations. If I have the drop on them in a fight I'll take the shot. If they have the drop on me I'll move to cover."

[ElDub1950]

The thing I have done over the years is run scenarios in my head so at least I have done some of the thinking in advance.
!

Yep, I keep escalating the scenarios trying to think of what bad guy actions would be the tipping point that forces me to draw my weapon and fire.

[Brian1979]

The concept of knowing if you have the skills to make "the shot" are almost as important as knowing when you don't have the skills to make "the shot". And both are secondary to knowing if you should even take "the shot". Being emotionally able to take "the shot" should have been worked out a long time ago.

Competition encrouages you to take shots that are beyond your ability and most tactical training encrouages you to take shots that you probably shouldn't from a legal perspective. The most important tools you bring to any conflict are mental discipline and intelligence.

This is very true. I have been thinking about this as well. I see vids of 8 shot retreats etc and if that were done in a SD situation my guess is there will be trouble in the court.

[HK35]

Target discrimination is huge. Positively ID the threat and then let your technical skills take over.

Maybe you should let the LAPD know this little secret

[ramzar]

Maybe you should let the LAPD know this little secret

Here's what we have (Details emerge in LAPD's mistaken shooting of newspaper carriers):

Around 5am last Thursday a group of LAPD officers guarding the home of a high-ranking LAPD official unloaded a barrage of 20-30 rounds into the back of a truck suspected of belonging to Dorner. The truck was not a Nissan Titan, but a Toyota Tacoma. The color was not gray, but aqua blue. And it wasn't Dorner inside the truck, but a Hispanic woman and her mother delivering copies of the Los Angeles Times. Both women are expected to recover.

The women were victims of 'a tragic misinterpretation' by officers working under 'incredible tension,' LAPD Chief Charlie Beck says.

A photo is quite telling:



CNN Reports: "The Los Angeles officers involved in the wounding of innocent civilians were put on paid administrative leave, police spokeswoman Rosario Herrera said Saturday. A day earlier, the LAPD had said the officers weren't put on such leave."


One of the best lessons I've learnt the past few years is simply to not shoot if you have any doubts at all as far as positively identifying the threat.

[GeoffLinder]

This thread is getting very interesting

[9mmepiphany]

...does it matter whether you feel confident that when the time comes for action that you are capable of making the shot required because you have no question in your ability to do so, or does it matter more that you have been there before?

Confidence, in your skill level, that you can make the shot needed is a good thing, but it won't tell you if you can. What it does do is give you time to make a better decision.

To paraphrase the Little Bill line, "It is the willingness to kill"...not shoot in self-defense or to shoot to protect another...just the ability to take another life. It is something to consider long before the time arises, because there won't be time when it does arise.

What training does for you is it allows you to determine if the conditions present really meet the criteria that would justify your action...you really don't want to be operating out of fear.

The key is not to be surprised when it is the time for action. As a pretty decent shooter once told me, the first time he faced a start that didn't include a beeper, but turning targets (it was at Gunsite), his first reaction was surprise...before he could even start his draw

[HighLander51]

Competition encrouages you to take shots that are beyond your ability and most tactical training encrouages you to take shots that you probably shouldn't from a legal perspective. The most important tools you bring to any conflict are mental discipline and intelligence.

The Zen Master has spoken, so it is said, so it shall be written...... And you must be able to eloquently and convincingly articulate the situation in court.

[mocos]

All things considered...I have no doubt that you can make the shot..something you started off with this post...I think you really meant to say "take" the shot. The choice of the two words indicates your mindset. You are not sure if you can kill another human. If you are hunting animals, you know when to take the shot because you have done it before..and you know you can make the shot. In a life and death situation, it will be different because the stakes are higher. I think in war or defined conflict...it is easier because there is a "purpose" but in other situations, it is case by case and if you are prepared with the proper mindset to do what is right or necessary.