AAR Greg Block Basic Shotgun 1/9/11

[batstrider]

AAR - Greg Block Basic Shotgun Class
1/9/2011

What we did:
CLASSROOM
General Intro/Safety/
Shotgun Ammo Types
Shotgun Action Types
Working Parts of Pump/Semi Auto Shotguns
Shotgun Stance

RANGE
Combat Load
Speed Load
Combat/Speed Load
Underarm Shooting
Underarm/Shoulder Shooting
Load to Max and Fire



Most Useful Things Learned
- Learned that my 870 has an issue with extracting spent shells. Needs to be fixed if this shotgun is ever to come out in situation requiring its use.
- Learned that I need a shorter foreend in order to use my side saddle.
- Learned that I need a dedicated shell-carriage system for high round-count courses.
- Learned that I may need a shorter LOP on my stock.
- Got to put 200 rounds through my 870. I feel that every round fired is training (trigger pull, recoil, sight picture, etc.)


- Underarm shootingNo threat scan.Inconsistent reloading.Nothing was done under stressRandom ThingsMounting and Shooting from the Shoulder and Underarm
Tactical, Combat and Speed Reloading for Self-Defense Situations

[Shotgun Annie]

Wow... I just had to join this forum and post a reply to this! I am a relatively new shotgun shooter who was in this same class and I have to say I got something totally different out of the class! I found Greg Block to be a great instructor with a ton of knowledge that he imparted on everyone. He also is very funny, which is a nice way to learn things, rather than taking a class from a militant type of instructor.

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I am not sure why you thought this was something you didn't need to learn? Don't you think that each type of loading has a purpose and therefor should be taught? If I loaded with my right hand and needed to pull the trigger quickly, I would be screwed (being a right hand, right eye dominant shooter)! Speed loading with my right hand if I am somewhere with good cover would make sense as well. Loading with whatever hand "isn't on my grip at the moment" seems plain old silly to me!

Also, The class was told that an aggressive lean was preferred for shooting stance; no other stances were covered. Etc.

What other stances would you use with a highly recoiling firearm? I noticed that when I leaned into it, the recoil was less and I had better control of the shotgun. I knew when I wasn't leaning into it because of how out of control I felt.

Underarm shootingNo threat scan.

If you are clearing a house, do you really have room with a shotgun to do a threat scan or shoulder it and look down your sights? Last I looked, most of my hallways don't need a scan since the shot pattern pretty much covers the entire hallway or door. I can't see myself going to look for trouble where I don't need to since I intend to hunker down in one room and cover the "fatal funnel of fire" as Greg said!

Inconsistent reloading.Nothing was done under stress

I got to watch a couple of people with side saddles being encouraged to use them by the instructors and being show the correct way to load them. As far as being under stress, must be nice to feel strong, invincible and fully comfortable with what you were doing. My practice with firearms always seems a bit stressful to me because of the respect I give their power and stress is something I give myself in my endeavors to be the best at what I am doing each and every time!

batstrider... didn't you sign up for a Basic Shotgun class? If I am not to learn this in a basic shotgun class then where am I to learn it? By the way, Greg said the bad guys tend to duck when getting shot at, so it's OK if your aim is a little low!

Most Useful Things Learned

I am not trying to be mean by picking apart your entire post - I just wanted to give a different view from someone else taking the class. I think it's nice to hear that you did get something out of the class; I got a lot of information, learned a lot and feel very comfortable with my shotgun now thanks to Greg's class. I didn't find the fee unreasonable in any way and I think I got my money's worth. I actually liked bonus of the drive up to the range and I might just have to go back for more classes now!

[batstrider]

Glad you chimed, in Annie!

By "using whatever hand isn't on the grip," I mean using whatever hand isn't busy working the trigger/safety/etc. For example, since I am right-handed, I always load with my left hand and will set up my shells accordingly (left side of body). Unless I am somehow shooting with my left hand, I will always reload with my left; if I shoot with my left hand I will then reload with my right as the situation dictates. I am right-hand, right-eye dominant, just as you are; however firearms are the one thing I train to use with both hands.

The speed reloading technique taught in yesterday's class involved turning the gun over completely (thus breaking your grip and making you THAT much more susceptible to being caught with a weapon that isn't ready to fire), reloading, then flipping it over. That may hold some value in some situations, but it isn't to my preference. True it does provide great visual confirmation that your shells ARE going into your shotgun, but I would never take my eyes completely off a threat/area where a threat might come from just to reload my shotgun. What if that threat comes up on your "good cover"? By the time you roll your shotgun right-side up, you're already dead. I practice reloading without looking, or keeping my shotgun in my vision as I continue to keep my eyes front.

I like how "Hollywood" stuff was looked down upon in the class, but I feel that "shooting from the hip" is probably one of the most Hollywood-esque things that happens a lot in movies. Which is exactly what we were taught for the underarm portion. As you might remember, we were expected to know if our aim was "eh, a little too high, eh a little too low". Point is, if you don't know where your sights are you don't know where your rounds are gonna go. If you rely on the spread/pattern of shot in your home, it stays fairly tight up close and doesn't spread out till a little ways out. So if your shotgun isn't pointed directly at the bad guy, that shot is gonna go somewhere that isn't the bad guy. On that note, it would have been nice to go over the patterning/effects of the three primary rounds available (buck, bird, slug).

As for stance, I prefer a more squared-up stance for shooting. I've shot rifle, handgun and shotgun that way and it's more comfortable for me. I also find it easier to move while in that stance as opposed to the "aggressive lean" taught yesterday. Just as there is the Weaver, Isoceles, etc. stances for firing a pistol, there isn't just ONE way to shoot a shotgun.

I did not know about the other students being encouraged to use side saddles; the only experience I had was with the gentleman next to me, who only loaded his saddle during the final shoot-however-you-like "drill".

Yes, I was actually expecting a Basic shotgun class - a self-defense one. I felt that I paid 90$ for a Basic Shotgun Information/Familiarization class, which is why I was disappointed. I came to class already knowing how to combat load, speed load and shoot my 870: that's 3 of the 4 things that were worked on during range time. The history about actions, parts and ammunition types is stuff I had already learned before just by doing some research.

This class will teach you how to USE a shotgun, but, IMHO, not in a defensive situation.
If you would like to learn great information about shotguns (history, action types, working parts, specialty rounds, etc.) and learn the basics of manipulating a shotgun (loading, pumping, shooting) then feel free to take this class.

If you are looking to learn to defend yourself or fight with a shotgun I feel like you would be better served going to other instructors.


EDIT: I also was disappointed because the class was about 5 hours long, about an hour short. May be nitpicking but I paid for SIX hours of instruction (not including the hour for lunch stated on the website. It may be "just an hour" that I didn't get but a lot of stuff could have been crammed into that hour.

[Shotgun Annie]

Glad you chimed, in Annie!

If you are looking to learn to defend yourself or fight with a shotgun I feel like you would be better served going to other instructors.

Did I insult your mall ninja desires that much that you needed to launch an attack the instructor who I thought was great (were you one of the young guys on the far right)? Telling me I should find another instructor is quite insulting to me when I clearly stated that I was happy with the class and I feel like I got what I paid for.

If you felt you wasted your money and didn't get what you wanted, why don't you man up and tell Greg how you felt and ask for a refund? I saw nothing but happy faces around me from the 19 year old college student to the 76 year old guy!

[batstrider]

I'm sorry if that seemed like that was directed to you, but it was a general statement to whoever may have been reading this AAR. I felt that what was taught in the class was more basic shotgun handling than self-defense tactics or techniques.

Why the insults about "mall ninjas," Annie? That was not warranted at all. What attack do you speak of? I merely stated my reasons for being disappointed with the class and even conceded that for learning the extreme basics of shotgun, this course would be great.

However, if one would like to learn how to actually employ their shotgun in a defensive situation, one would be better served by looking to other schools. Most other schools' "basic" courses offer far more material and learning opportunities than the class I took on Sunday.

I am also not willing to train with an instructor who advocates techniques as taking one's eyes off the target while reloading (and taking the gun out of the fight) and shooting the shotgun from the hip- how is that being a "mall ninja?"

I did not see a refund policy on firearmstraining.com and thus did not even bother asking. I am putting out this AAR to share my experiences with others who may be looking to take the class. I have no business discussing my problems with class curriculum with Mr. Block as that is what he teaches and nothing will change that, which I can respect. I also appreciate that Mr. Block took the time to come out and teach, but what he taught was what disappointed me.

I will just take my business elsewhere but feel it is my right to let others know exactly what I thought of the class. I don't see why Mr. Block needs to talk with me concerning my discontent with his class; all he need do is continue to keep teaching whatever he does.

Also, why does it matter exactly who I am? You have no business knowing that. Unless of course, you're not who you say you are and are looking to profile me...

[echoarms]

I agree with Annie. It was advertised as a basic course. The course did exactly what it was designed to do. It took a young small framed girl who had never shot a gun, and taught her the basics of loading, shooting and handling a shotgun. I don't think for $90 the class was intended to cover the same body of material as Magpul's 16 hour shotgun class. It is meant to give everyone a foundation on which they can begin to defend themselves.

FWIW, I was the guy who brought my 14 year old son for a foundation of some gun handling skills.

[batstrider]

I agree with Annie. It was advertised as a basic course. The course did exactly what it was designed to do. It took a young small framed girl who had never shot a gun, and taught her the basics of loading, shooting and handling a shotgun. I don't think for $90 the class was intended to cover the same body of material as Magpul's 16 hour shotgun class. It is meant to give everyone a foundation on which they can begin to defend themselves.

As I've stated before, I understand it was a basic course. But it was advertised as being a basic self defense course. Loading and shooting does provide a good foundation but barely meets the requirement for learning how to use a shotgun for self defense.

I would be an idiot to expect something of Magpul or other big-name school's caliber for $90. But I WAS expecting something more than "This is how to combat load (only one way is correct, btw), this is how to speed load while breaking your grip on your shotgun, and this is an old technique on how to minimize your profile inside the house. Let's mix it up!"

For example - We went over ammo types. Did we spend time on learning about the defensive properties and applications for them? Especially buckshot and slugs? No. We did learn about those, yes, but in short detail. We DID learn about all the specialty rounds that "oh, you're civilians and can't get even get, but I can!" like less-lethal rounds, birdbombs, flechettes. He even included 37mm and 40mm LTL rounds just for the "ooooh ahhhh" factor from the students...Those have nothing to do with shotguns. We could have spent the time learning about shot patterns at house distances, the penetration of buckshot (which was talked about at the end of class but wasn't a part of the curriculum) and the advantages/disadvantages of certain ammo types.


Good for learning the extreme basics - as I have said before - but for more inclusive home defense courses I will look elsewhere. Other local "basic courses" cost only slightly more, but cover a lot more. IMHO one shouldn't have to pay for a "law-enforcement certified" instructor just to teach them how to load and shoot a shotgun. Basic operation should be something one learns by going out to the range and getting to know their gun; refining those techniques into being more suited for shooting bad people is the job of self defense/tactical/combat/(insert your choice of instructor here) instructors.

[Python2]

Batsrider, you keep talking like you know everything about self defense, so why did you take Greg course in the first place?
Why whine here and not directly to Greg? Maybe he will refund you your money.
And no, I have not taken his course but I have heard mostly positive and I plan to take some if I can get myself down south. You are the first one that threw a negative report.

[batstrider]

I don't claim to know everything. I am new to shooting and always looking to learn and expand my knowledge. I merely am comparing what was taught in the class to what I already know and am used to, as well as the curriculum of other basic courses. I have a long way to go.

I took the class because the $90 was appealing to me. I knew basic manipulation of my shotgun before I took the class, as well as the "admin" information about shotguns. I was expecting a class on self-defense, not on how to do things that I already knew how to do. I was expecting the classroom information to be useful to me in a defense situation- I don't care about flechettes that I can't own, birdbomb shells that are used to scare wildlife, or rounds for weapons I can't even OWN.

I've already stated why I do not need to go to Greg, and why I am sharing my experience and my opinion. If he takes issue with this AAR, I would be glad to talk to him but there is no need; it will accomplish nothing.

As always my mileage varies from others. I am extremely glad that there are those who benefited greatly from this class; unfortunately, I am not one of them and I am sharing my opinions as to why. (This has been stated before, why do people keep asking questions that have already been answered?)

I don't get why negative reviews are always attacked. There will always be things students like/don't like about courses. This course/instructor just happened to have more of the "don't like."

As I said before,
that's In My Humble Opinion (which isn't worth ****, come to think of it) and Your Mileage May Vary.

[Shotgun Annie]

I don't claim to know everything. I am new to shooting and always looking to learn and expand my knowledge. I merely am comparing what was taught in the class to what I already know and am used to, as well as the curriculum of other basic courses. I have a long way to go.

I think you do have a long way to go if you didn't get anything out of this class. That's why I profiled you as a "mall ninja" type; those are the guys that expect to be treated like a recruit and pushed hard in what is supposed to be a basic class.

As always my mileage varies from others. I am extremely glad that there are those who benefited greatly from this class; unfortunately, I am not one of them and I am sharing my opinions as to why. (This has been stated before, why do people keep asking questions that have already been answered?)

Good for learning the extreme basics - as I have said before - but for more inclusive home defense courses I will look elsewhere. Other local "basic courses" cost only slightly more, but cover a lot more.

People keep asking "why?" because you got what you paid for and whined about it! Sorry if I don't understand why you can't recommend this class as I got A LOT out of it and it saddens me that you attacked a class and instructor that I thought was amazing!

As I said before, that's In My Humble Opinion (which isn't worth ****, come to think of it)

[batstrider]

Annie, are you implying that just because I paid for it I should not whine about it?

If you paid for a burger at a restaurant, and got one that was unsatisfactory to your taste- would you not "whine" about it? Or share your experiences with others who may choose to eat at that restaurant?

I don't see how desiring realistic and relevant training, even in a basic course, qualifies me as a "mall ninja." Most other basic courses don't "treat you like a recruit" or "push you hard," but they do teach WAY more relevant information and apply stress when necessary. This may be what is seen as "militant" in other instructors. If someone doesn't want to deal with the stress induced by having a "militant" instructor, then good luck to them dealing with the stress when bullets start flying their way.

When I signed up for a self-defense class, I was hoping for the class to teach me and prepare me how to deal with persons/people that are trying to kill me, and kill them first.

I guess now I'm more prepared for the Invasion of the Circular Steel Targets that Always Appear Near the Ground.


Again there has to be a differentiation between "Basic Shotgun Usage Course" and "Basic Self Defense Shotgun Course". Yes, I did get what I paid for and in retrospect I should have done more research before committing to the class.

[esskay]

I think the key thing here -- as with all products and services -- is what was delivered vs. the customer's expectations. It is really important for those two things to be aligned. Firearms training can be difficult for folks to assess when deciding who to train with, so AARs play an important part in helping prospective customers understand what they are getting into (and might get out of it).

I would humbly suggest that at this point, from the accounts above, we all now have a pretty good idea of what to expect from this particular class (from happy customers and a not so happy customer). So mission accomplished for the AAR, no need for people to take things personally... and hopefully the parties above can move on.

Instructors also tend to be interested in hearing feedback (good and bad) so that discourse can also be productive. Mismatched expectations and unhappy customers do them no favors either.

Batstrider, I think I have a good sense now of what you're looking for in training, feel free to PM me if you are looking for other ideas for trainers along those lines.

[Matt P]

Thank you Bat for taking the time to provide an after action report.
That whole post seemed to have taken some time in typing.

I learned from your words.

Its great to be able to have insight with what students are looking for in training.
Not so much shotgun specific training, but just training in general.

Your words had value for me and for the students who will spend their hard earned training dollars with me.

Again, thank you for your efforts.

I wanted to add,
What I came away with from your AAR,
1. Keeping an open mind when students want to maintain their way with certain operations. Never teach one way, but more A way.
2. After action drills. I typically would not do this in a basic class. But, I will make more of an effort to encourage it. At least show them one way to do after actions. I will not hammer them to keep doing them, unless they want to be reminded.
Its my sense in a basic class, they already have their hands full with just adapting to the basic technique. I generally do not want to give them more to remember to do.
3. Stress shooting is another one I try and avoid in a basic class. I do not want students to throw technique out in an effort to try and be effective under stress. My sense is that students out on the range training, should make excellent use of that training time. Perfect practice is a term I like and use. I would rather have them do everything slow with proper movement, and learn those basic movements first before adding any stress or speed. Practice on their own could be a time for them start applying speed or more stress.
Maybe I can make more of an effort to at least give them a little stress with the shot timer.

All the above just my opinion.

[Spooled Up]

He has a right to his opinion and I don't think he was insulting the way he expressed himself. The class does say basic, so I wouldn't have expected more then that. Personally I would email him about it and see what he says. Maybe he will give you a better deal to take his higher class? Being a business owner myself I would want to hear feedback from my customers.

I plan on taking his basic handgun class this month.

[Spooled Up]

I just finished up Greg Block basic handgun class and am very happy. Obviously it said basic hand gun so the basics were gone over first. Then off to the range we went. Did lots of shooting and he gave everybody advice/tips on how to become a better shooter. He had a very easy going personality, and was not a bore when going over legal stuff. I plan on taking his next one, had a great time.

Here are some pics I took, it was a nice day to say the least.