Comments on Shotgun Training at Front Sight?

[powaybob]

Has anyone taken the tactical shotgun course at Front Sight? Any comments or suggestions. I have been through the handgun courses and achieve4d graduate level so I am generally familiar with the organization and layout. Is the shotgun training on the same level as the handgun?

Is a Mossberg 500 adequate to the task?

[AAShooter]

Yes, yes, yes. Hostage shots and simulations are funner.

Seriously, any gun will do if you will do. One of the old instructors used a Mossberg 500 for demonstrations just to show it doesn't take a fancy gun. You need a sling but other than that I would do nothing to your gun until after you take the class. A shorter barrel is nice.

The challenge with the shotgun course is ammo management. You have to keep the three types of ammo (bird, buck and slug) separated during the class, including night shooting. I use ammo strippers:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=4148/Product/12_GAUGE_SPEED_STRIPPER

I also use kydex 2-round shell holders for slugs. I don't remember the name of the manufacturer.

Magazine extensions and side saddles are great but make the gun really heavy. I would not rush out an add those for the class.

Knee pads and elbow pads come in handy.

The nice thing about the shotgun classes is they can often be a little smaller and for most participants it is at least their second class with FS so they know many of the routines.

[powaybob]

Thanks AA shooter. I think I will go for it as I have very little experience with shotguns and my eyes are too damn old to be really effective with a rifle.

[SDM44]

Side note.... What's your recommendation with either having a standard butt-stock, or a pistol grip stock when doing live drills at FS? Does one seem to benefit over the other? Or should you just use whatever you're comfortable with?

[AAShooter]

Side note.... What's your recommendation with either having a standard butt-stock, or a pistol grip stock when doing live drills at FS? Does one seem to benefit over the other? Or should you just use whatever you're comfortable with?

Use what you are comfortable with. Obviously some shotguns have a safety placement that don't lend itself to use with a butt stock with a pistol grip. Remington 870's work pretty well with a pistol grip. The Mossberg tang safety is not so good for a pistol grip.

Some find it easier to hold the shotgun one-handed with a pistol grip while doing reloads or shooting with a flashlight. Personally, I have not fell in love with a pistol grip on a shotgun.

Finally, I believe FS does require that you have a butt-stock with or without a pistol grip.

[AAShooter]

Thanks AA shooter. I think I will go for it as I have very little experience with shotguns and my eyes are too damn old to be really effective with a rifle.

In four days you will learn a great deal and be able to make much better equipment decisions for you.

[AAShooter]

Yes, yes, yes. Hostage shots and simulations are funner.

Seriously, any gun will do if you will do. One of the old instructors used a Mossberg 500 for demonstrations just to show it doesn't take a fancy gun. You need a sling but other than that I would do nothing to your gun until after you take the class. A shorter barrel is nice.

The challenge with the shotgun course is ammo management. You have to keep the three types of ammo (bird, buck and slug) separated during the class, including night shooting. I use ammo strippers:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=4148/Product/12_GAUGE_SPEED_STRIPPER

I also use kydex 2-round shell holders for slugs. I don't remember the name of the manufacturer.

Magazine extensions and side saddles are great but make the gun really heavy. I would not rush out an add those for the class.

Knee pads and elbow pads come in handy.

The nice thing about the shotgun classes is they can often be a little smaller and for most participants it is at least their second class with FS so they know many of the routines.

Here is a link to shellholders similar to the ones I use for slugs: http://www.brownells.com/1/1/8483-do...afariland.html

[AAShooter]

For those running a semi-auto, make sure your ammo runs your gun before you get there. Some pick-up reduced power loads to save their shoulder only to find their gun is not setup to run with reduced power loads. A 4-day class with an unreliable weapons system is no fun.

[snowyriver]

You can pick up alot of the shotgun ammo at Walmart in Pahrump. I just would stay away from Walmarts Winchester 00 buck. Its patterns poorly in my 870.

[powaybob]

Snowyriver,
Buying ammo in Pahrump is a crap shoot, even at Wally World. I like to have at least the bare minimum for the course when I drive up from San Diego. Anything I can find there is a bonus and I use it to replace what I use for the course.

[ronson]

Hope this reply isn't too late...

I did the 4-day shotgun in September with a Mossberg 500. It was the cheapest gun there and probably had the fewest problems of all. Lots of people came Knoxx recoil-reducing stocks, all of them broke or were removed for causing lots of cheek thumps. I'd say 80% of the auto guns had one problem or another, I wasn't impressed. Lots of 870s had extraction problems and all were hard to unload to empty the gun. I came away very impressed with the Mossbergs in the class.

It's a noticeable advantage to have some slugs on the sidesaddle for timed drills - don't need more than 2. I bought a 6-shell carrier, unnecessary. I plan to just cover the side with industrial velcro and stick on a 2-shell unit as needed. There's no problem with the 5-round capacity of the cheaper 500s except for fun "zombie" shoot drills where everyone ends up running shoot one, load one drills anyway.

Having premium tight-patterning 00 buck is an advantage on the test (if you care). Federal Flight Control 13200 is what I used and everyone else in the class was VERY jealous of how easy it made things, trivial headshots up close (lots of people lost points here), still very controllable at 25 yards. Birdshot can be anything, go cheap and light. When I went, two FS shotgun courses had the Pahrump Walmart completely sold out of shotgun ammo. Also if you or a partner is shooting 20g, BE SURE to order premium stuff beforehand and have an appropriate choke. The lack of tight-patterning #3 buck for 20g was a significant handicap for those people.

Lastly bead sights (like my Big 5 500) are a disadvantage, slow to acquire and not accurate at long range (50y slug drills had me doing huge holdovers). Ghost ring sights should be a minimum if you're buying a gun for this. If you want to DG the skills test and move on to the advanced class (not that they offer it more than once a year), a red dot sight would be ideal.

Had a great time, and despite the bead sight I was only 3 points off DG! Will definitely go back to do it again. I brought their recommended loadout and shot a little more than half of it.

[AAShooter]

Hope this reply isn't too late...

I did the 4-day shotgun in September with a Mossberg 500. It was the cheapest gun there and probably had the fewest problems of all. Lots of people came Knoxx recoil-reducing stocks, all of them broke or were removed for causing lots of cheek thumps. I'd say 80% of the auto guns had one problem or another, I wasn't impressed. Lots of 870s had extraction problems and all were hard to unload to empty the gun. I came away very impressed with the Mossbergs in the class.

It's a noticeable advantage to have some slugs on the sidesaddle for timed drills - don't need more than 2. I bought a 6-shell carrier, unnecessary. I plan to just cover the side with industrial velcro and stick on a 2-shell unit as needed. There's no problem with the 5-round capacity of the cheaper 500s except for fun "zombie" shoot drills where everyone ends up running shoot one, load one drills anyway.

Having premium tight-patterning 00 buck is an advantage on the test (if you care). Federal Flight Control 13200 is what I used and everyone else in the class was VERY jealous of how easy it made things, trivial headshots up close (lots of people lost points here), still very controllable at 25 yards. Birdshot can be anything, go cheap and light. When I went, two FS shotgun courses had the Pahrump Walmart completely sold out of shotgun ammo. Also if you or a partner is shooting 20g, BE SURE to order premium stuff beforehand and have an appropriate choke. The lack of tight-patterning #3 buck for 20g was a significant handicap for those people.

Lastly bead sights (like my Big 5 500) are a disadvantage, slow to acquire and not accurate at long range (50y slug drills had me doing huge holdovers). Ghost ring sights should be a minimum if you're buying a gun for this. If you want to DG the skills test and move on to the advanced class (not that they offer it more than once a year), a red dot sight would be ideal.

Had a great time, and despite the bead sight I was only 3 points off DG! Will definitely go back to do it again. I brought their recommended loadout and shot a little more than half of it.

Sounds like you had a good time. It surprises me so many 870's had issues.

[esskay]

Yes, yes, yes. Hostage shots and simulations are funner.

Seriously, any gun will do if you will do. One of the old instructors used a Mossberg 500 for demonstrations just to show it doesn't take a fancy gun. You need a sling but other than that I would do nothing to your gun until after you take the class. A shorter barrel is nice.

The challenge with the shotgun course is ammo management. You have to keep the three types of ammo (bird, buck and slug) separated during the class, including night shooting. I use ammo strippers:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=4148/Product/12_GAUGE_SPEED_STRIPPER

I also use kydex 2-round shell holders for slugs. I don't remember the name of the manufacturer.

Magazine extensions and side saddles are great but make the gun really heavy. I would not rush out an add those for the class.

Knee pads and elbow pads come in handy.

The nice thing about the shotgun classes is they can often be a little smaller and for most participants it is at least their second class with FS so they know many of the routines.

Those kind of shell caddies are fantastic for quick and smooth reloads, I use similar ones for competition where I load four shells at a time using my weak hand -- however, I would suggest thinking through their application carefully for tactical/defensive use.

The caddies do take a lot of real estate on your belt and have varying levels of retention with vigorous movement, depending on which kind you have and how you set them up. They can also be a bit noisy with the shells clattering.

I would look at the four-shell versions over the six-shell versions for a couple reasons -- the longer ones tend to interfere with movement... my six round caddies would jab me in the gut whenever I bent at the waist. I also load shells four at a time, not six or three and three.

Also think about your likely scenarios when you need to employ your shotgun. If there's a bump in the night and you might quickly grab your shotgun, will you also kit up and strap on your gear belt with a bunch of loaded caddies on it? Or will you likely mostly have the shotgun and what's in or on it? I think a side saddle is a very good idea for a defensive shotgun, a four round version strikes a good balance.

[AAShooter]

Those kind of shell caddies are fantastic for quick and smooth reloads, I use similar ones for competition where I load four shells at a time using my weak hand -- however, I would suggest thinking through their application carefully for tactical/defensive use.

The caddies do take a lot of real estate on your belt and have varying levels of retention with vigorous movement, depending on which kind you have and how you set them up. They can also be a bit noisy with the shells clattering.

I would look at the four-shell versions over the six-shell versions for a couple reasons -- the longer ones tend to interfere with movement... my six round caddies would jab me in the gut whenever I bent at the waist. I also load shells four at a time, not six or three and three.

Also think about your likely scenarios when you need to employ your shotgun. If there's a bump in the night and you might quickly grab your shotgun, will you also kit up and strap on your gear belt with a bunch of loaded caddies on it? Or will you likely mostly have the shotgun and what's in or on it? I think a side saddle is a very good idea for a defensive shotgun, a four round version strikes a good balance.

I am not sure they are much of a tactical tool but for high round count classes, they come in handy. Although I have used them hunting.

They also aren't the best solution for positional shooting. Going prone with them is always a gamble where your ammo will end up.

[ronson]

Sounds like you had a good time. It surprises me so many 870's had issues.

Maybe "lots" is an overstatement. I was paired with a fellow with some variant of 870 and it was a turd, all kinds of problems. He sort of gave up well before the skills test. On the bright side he got lots of extra malfunction drill practice. Often with one or two instructors hanging around trying to figure what the heck was wrong with it. I saw one or two other with different 870 problems, but there must have been others that ran fine. It was windy and awfully dusty I guess.