Training Question: Slide Catch

[Voo]

Lining up the sights and a smooth press of the trigger are both fine motor skills..

I know right? It's amazing people hype the loss of motor skills but somehow ignore the process that lining up the sights and pressing the trigger is a far more difficult feat to accomplish correctly..

I guess we're all screwed

[xrMike]

After reloading, with my 1911 and standard slide release (not extended), I am faster if I rack the slide as I push the gun forward into firing position.

When I try to use the slide release I have to reposition my hand (and also turn the muzzle nearly perpendicular to the target, coming close to breaking the 180 rule, which is unsafe).

An extended slide release, or better training, or more practice, might change that. But that's what works best for me right now.

[esskay]

After reloading, with my 1911 and standard slide release (not extended), I am faster if I rack the slide as I push the gun forward into firing position.

When I try to use the slide release I have to reposition my hand (and also turn the muzzle nearly perpendicular to the target, coming close to breaking the 180 rule, which is unsafe).

An extended slide release, or better training, or more practice, might change that. But that's what works best for me right now.

1911s are actually prime examples of a platform where the support hand thumb works perfectly to release the slide. Your support thumb is literally right there hovering above the release as you reacquire your grip, just give it a try and see what you think!

[xrMike]

Wow, never even thought about trying it that way... I'll definitely give that a shot at the next IDPA match. Just visualizing it, it seems like the fastest way too. Thanks!

1911s are actually prime examples of a platform where the support hand thumb works perfectly to release the slide. Your support thumb is literally right there hovering above the release as you reacquire your grip, just give it a try and see what you think!

[fryer1979]

Well, thanks for the input guys. I guess the only thing left to do is try and get an e-mail directly to this person and ask him personally why he might say such a thing. If I get anything back besides the expected "my way or no way" response, I'll be sure to pass it along. Since there doesn't seem to be anything "dangerous" to anyone with choosing to rack a slide, I can't say it would be worth the time, confusion, and frustration of trying to retrain another method.

And HCz: Thank you for the links to the other threads. It took a while to read through all the back and forth, but there was some good info in there that for some reason my search efforts didn't turn up.

[HCz]

If you decide to send the email, just keep the email civil. If he say 'my way or highway', just move on. At the same time, I don't think I ever met an instructor I agree 100% on every issue.

Search function here on Calguns isn't the best. I searched under 'slide lock' for thread title only. There might be more, but the three are the ones that I found. Glad to help.

[fryer1979]

If you decide to send the email, just keep the email civil. If he say 'my way or highway', just move on. At the same time, I don't think I ever met an instructor I agree 100% on every issue.

Search function here on Calguns isn't the best. I searched under 'slide lock' for thread title only. There might be more, but the three are the ones that I found. Glad to help.

Oh I absolutely will keep it civil. I have no desire to badger the guy, I just want to ask why he might say something like that. If I get the response I am expecting, I will only reply with a 'thank you for your time'. I would just like to know why he would say that. There are several other things he was quoted as saying that I disagree with, but this was the only one he said so forcefully. There is always a chance that the quotes were completely fictional as well, in which case we may be able to share a good laugh.

I have horrible luck with the search function here, every time I try searching for something I get "there are no results found for your search....". The links are always appreciated.

[vandal]

This debate may be polarized by the training we've invested in. I've never had an instructor with a military background that taught using the slide stop, and I've never had an instructor with a competition background teach grabbing the slide. But that's just my experience with my instructors.

The fine vs gross motor skill debate will range on and can't really be tested in competition. That debate may be masking the real issue -- Glock standard slide catches are flat and slippery as compared to just about anything else. Did Glock marketing reshape what's taught for defensive tactics? That's what one of my competition-based instructors claimed.

Bigger picture though -- when you start thinking about targets that shoot back, OODA, and unexpected stoppages beyond just running dry, situations where you can't see the gun in your hand at all, etc. having just one ingrained response (TRB) reduces the number of options to choose between at the ooDa step and that may help to shorten the loop. I think that perspective is going to be more important to those interested in defense than looking at just the half-second shaved off a timer. There are a lot more important variables in combat than "time on Run 1".

[Hogxtz]

Another reason NOT to use the slide lock to release the slide after reloading is because it increases the chance the weapon won't go into full battery. By pulling back on the slide fully and letting go it reduces this risk of failure. An important issue when in a state of self defense.

[Jicko]

1; operating the slide catch is a fine motor skill

Good for you 45R, an excellent observation... That should always be the standard answer for this all too common topic.

Just use a machete instead of a pistol..... pulling the trigger IS *also* a "fine motor" skill..... duh!

I believed in training hard, training frequently, and building muscle memory.

In general, I won't discredit one way or the other.... if one can get it done effectively, then it is fine....

[esskay]

This debate may be polarized by the training we've invested in. I've never had an instructor with a military background that taught using the slide stop, and I've never had an instructor with a competition background teach grabbing the slide. But that's just my experience with my instructors.

The fine vs gross motor skill debate will range on and can't really be tested in competition. That debate may be masking the real issue -- Glock standard slide catches are flat and slippery as compared to just about anything else. Did Glock marketing reshape what's taught for defensive tactics? That's what one of my competition-based instructors claimed.

Bigger picture though -- when you start thinking about targets that shoot back, OODA, and unexpected stoppages beyond just running dry, situations where you can't see the gun in your hand at all, etc. having just one ingrained response (TRB) reduces the number of options to choose between at the ooDa step and that may help to shorten the loop. I think that perspective is going to be more important to those interested in defense than looking at just the half-second shaved off a timer. There are a lot more important variables in combat than "time on Run 1".

FYI, Larry Vickers teaches hitting the release with the support thumb as his preferred method. Delta guys seem to tend to go for the most aggressive techniques, though, so one needs to keep that in mind when training with them! Interestingly, Vickers also expressed a hypothesis that the huge popularity and numbers of Glocks may have influenced techniques/etc...

[Gryff]

Another reason NOT to use the slide lock to release the slide after reloading is because it increases the chance the weapon won't go into full battery. By pulling back on the slide fully and letting go it reduces this risk of failure. An important issue when in a state of self defense.

You are talking about 1-2 mm extra distance in slide travel between the slide lock lever and pulling the slide back. If that makes a difference with your gun, you are pretty screwed because that is way too tight a tolerance for a fighting gun.

The fine vs gross motor skill debate will range on and can't really be tested in competition...Bigger picture though -- when you start thinking about targets that shoot back, OODA, and unexpected stoppages beyond just running dry, situations where you can't see the gun in your hand at all, etc. having just one ingrained response (TRB) reduces the number of options to choose between at the ooDa step and that may help to shorten the loop. I think that perspective is going to be more important to those interested in defense than looking at just the half-second shaved off a timer. There are a lot more important variables in combat than "time on Run 1".

I think you have a good underlying point, but I find that the stress of the timer is much more effective than anything I learn in classes. While neither compares with a real fight, I find one provides at least a little more exposure to stress than the other.

Also, reloads and malfunction drills are separate beasts. It has never been a problem for me having different muscle memory for different procedures (slide release for the emergency reload versus racking the slide during the malfunction clearance). Even though both involve the slide going forward at some point in time, they are not the same process (one doesn't generally involve releasing a locked-back slide).

I think the problem is when you embrace one style of mechanics for sport, and another for defense. That is when you are going to screw yourself. But if you decide on a particular style, and stick to it (and repeat it until it becomes ingrained and instinctive), you'll be fine.

And remember, you are paying for your training (assuming you aren't military or LEO). If you don't agree with a specific technique, there is no compulsion to embrace it. There are a lot of really good instructors out there, but even then best will let their personal biases flavor their instruction.

[esskay]

Another reason NOT to use the slide lock to release the slide after reloading is because it increases the chance the weapon won't go into full battery. By pulling back on the slide fully and letting go it reduces this risk of failure. An important issue when in a state of self defense.

Not sure about all platforms but on most of my handguns the amount of additional rearward travel on the slide past where the slide release catches does not seem so significant that it would make a material difference.

A real risk of racking the slide is that the shooter may ride the slide, thus achieving the exact opposite. So, for those who use this technique, it is very important to train not to ride the slide. Of course, same thing for loading the weapon or any other slide manipulation. Magpul calls it "power stroking" the slide, some teach to almost bang your support hand against your shoulder when racking the slide as a method to make sure the shooter lets go of the slide abruptly, etc.

[vandal]

Good data point. He teaches that method for Glocks? For all platforms? On a 1911 or Beretta I can see that being easy to hit but that would be my least preferred method on my Glocks. Support thumb (my least sensitive digit), small shelfless slide catch, little leverage...

What does throw me off is when I slam a mag home and am reaching for the slide to grab it, and the force of the mag insertion drops the slide. Hard to redirect the moving hand once I've mentally committed.

FYI, Larry Vickers teaches hitting the release with the support thumb as his preferred method. Delta guys seem to tend to go for the most aggressive techniques, though, so one needs to keep that in mind when training with them! Interestingly, Vickers also expressed a hypothesis that the huge popularity and numbers of Glocks may have influenced techniques/etc...

[Gryff]

What does throw me off is when I slam a mag home and am reaching for the slide to grab it, and the force of the mag insertion drops the slide. Hard to redirect the moving hand once I've mentally committed.

I agree. Glocks are great guns, but I hate that issue/feature/flaw/perk with them. I always have that little thought in the back of my brain about whether a round actually chambered. Only once has the round not chambered for me, but I can't shake that memory of "*click*...WTF?!"