Larry Vickers Test and 45 acp.

[hambam105]

Attaching the words 'Drill' and 'Failure' together is some kind of ploy a bozo shooting instructor would use on confused & insecure
student who is under the false assumption that some sort of certification from said instructor has value.

A drill is series of steps used as a performance indicator.

Take the word commonly used with Drill...Drill Instructor, right? Not Failure Instructor.

What kind of shooting nonsense are some of you guys listening too?

In a feeble attempt to show the world their prowess in all things firearms training, some yahoos think they can show how progressive
they are by altering the definition shooting jargon to make them appear important. Don't fall for this horse-pucky. And don't compare
your current abilities with others, it's counter-productive.

Shooting is all about applying the four fundamentals of marksmanship in the correct order deliberately and often under pressure.

[stormvet]

When all else fails bring a Glock for me anyways.

Shot LV’s test with my Glock 41 this morning shot a 97 in 9.54. Ran it a second time trying to push the time lower, I did with a mid 8 second run but put one in the 8 ring.

Also shot it with my Glock 44, it’s cheating but like I said fun. Also a 97 in 6.43.

In the end I think it comes down to I’ve just been shooting Glocks so much lately I’m a little rusty with the 1911s and other makes.

[rodralig]

Think I?m just gonna have to start shooting my 45?s more, this is really starting to bug me. Anybody else run the Test with 45?s, wanna share their times and wisdom with me. I?ll take whatever I can get, gotta get past this.

The first time I have heard and tried the "The Test" was when I took LV's class, shooting with a 45ACP (Fiocchi 230GR) H&K USP Expert. This was in 2019-Feb. We scored it both "Hackathorn" and "Vickers."





The second time I did it, albeit in 9mm and with a red dot since I cannot see the iron sights anymore, was at least a year back 2022-Jan - got a 98/4x

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke954Y-t3io

In terms of tips? While I am confident that my fundamentals are way better now than in early 2019; since I only did it twice, do take my advice with a grain of salt... I try to ensure that my grip was strong, steady and neutral. This ensures the consistent return of the sights (irons or a red dot) back on target, ie., the path should be "up/down." Then, the trigger - my reset to the breaking point happens during recoil such when the sights return there is minimal pause as I simply fire the shot.


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[stormvet]

Those were some nice runs and yeah there are a lot of variations of The Test.

I keep it simple, anything over 10 sec fail, anything outside the black fail. I do use the scoring rings, but anything in the 8 or 7 is an automatic fail so don’t bother counting that.

Ran it yesterday with a Beretta APX a1, 10/10 in 8.38 with a score of 99. I know 9mm that’s cheating.

[rodralig]

I do use the scoring rings, but anything in the 8 or 7 is an automatic fail so don?t bother counting that.

Yup! I would recall that was why I failed the 5-yard run; there was one outside the black. A fail as per LV.

Ran it yesterday with a Beretta APX a1, 10/10 in 8.38 with a score of 99. I know 9mm that?s cheating.

It's still the same... Who still shoots 45ACP nowadays?

Maybe I will find a chance to run it again when I am in the range (less opportunities nowadays with work/family). Curious on where I stand, ie., I have ran it only twice so far. As some have already opined - it is more of a "standards test" rather than a "practice drill."

But... It is very doable - here is an IDPA Classifier run with a G21SF Gen 3 in mid-2021. Factory Fiocchi 230GR and a stock OEM trigger/springs/RSA. 5-shots at 10-yards to an 8-inch target. This was a cold run (8:00am in the morning) - 1.37-draw (a sluggish one indeed, probably still sleepy) and .70-splits average. Accounting for a slower split to a more precise 5.5-inch target (the black of a B8) - 1.37-draw with .90-splits puts it at 9.47 (.90 is a conservative estimate as my splits actually got way better in the last string in spite of a headshot to a 4-inch target).





Cheers,

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[stormvet]

It's still the same... Who still shoots 45ACP nowadays?


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That was my reason for starting this thread, I was confident and comfortable with my skill training, most of it with 9mm. Then I broke out the 45?s and that confidence evaporated.

There was a time when the majority of my training was with 45 and I shot those 45?s the way I shoot my 9?s today. But after several years of primarily shooting 9?s that simply isn?t the case anymore.

My conclusion, with the transition to almost exclusively 9mm we?ve made it much easier to improve our times and scores. But at the same time weakening our skills with larger caliber handgun rounds. I?ll be sure to train more with 45 for now on.

[rodralig]

That was my reason for starting this thread, I was confident and comfortable with my skill training, most of it with 9mm. Then I broke out the 45?s and that confidence evaporated.

There was a time when the majority of my training was with 45 and I shot those 45?s the way I shoot my 9?s today. But after several years of primarily shooting 9?s that simply isn?t the case anymore.

My conclusion, with the transition to almost exclusively 9mm we?ve made it much easier to improve our times and scores. But at the same time weakening our skills with larger caliber handgun rounds. I?ll be sure to train more with 45 for now on.

Ah!!! Now I see where you are going...


That said, let me tell you where I am with this... YMMV.

While my carry and competition guns are 9mm; my primary HD is still a 45ACP - G21SF Gen 3. Hence, I take one (I have 2) out at times to matches (a major PF gun in a minor division like Carry Optics) OR always my pistol on day #1 of a tactical/defensive class (nice handicap as I try to outperform the other students).


Whenever I go to a range for live fire practice, rather than the "The Test" or something else, I always start with a B8 pushback drill with a 45ACP. Less than a box but very effective in warming up my "recoil management" and "trigger control" (Glock stock OEM trigger) for my work with the 9s...




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[SG29736]

In addition to the 10 yard test we did a drill he called 3-6-9. Same 5.5 in black. Start at 3 yds. Shooter has gun on target ready, take up slack, then at the beep shooter must simultaneously press the trigger. The shooter can't wait until they want. It must occur at the beep. Repeat for 5 shots. All should be in the x ring. Move back to 6yds then 9, etc. I do this myself occasionally and always when starting a session with my wife or other occasional shooters.

Even at 3 yrds they can feel it when they drop the muzzle or otherwise flinch. Having to press at the beep makes a huge difference.

I have primarily shot 45 or 40 major in USPSA. Recently have shot some Limited minor and noe Limited Optics minor. I shot a match in major again and could notice the difference but not that much really.

[stormvet]

That was excellent shooting, outstanding group. Great trigger control drill.

I do something similar, a slightly modified SWAT qualification course from my old department.

All from the holster with speed reloads it’s from 3 to 25. 46 out of 50 go hits needed to qual. A go hit is in the white and next lighter shade of blue in the body.

3 yard-Failure drill x 2
3 yard- Failure drill retreating from target x 2
7 yard-Failure drill x 2
7 yard-Controlled pair strong hand x 2
7 yard-Controlled pair support hand x 2
10 yard-Failure drill x2
10 yard-Failure drill advancing on target x2
15 yard-Controlled pairs x 4 (move off your spot between pairs)
25 yard- Controlled Pairs x 2 (move off your spot between pairs)

This is a 49/50(1 head shot just out of the white)

[T3Pros]

The Test is a great standard to see where one?s ability lies and what one needs to work on. The beauty of The Test, like a lot of drills, is one can always push to be faster, be more accurate, be more faster and accurate, etc.

We do The Test in our Pistol 1 class and it is very humbling for those that have never shot at a faster pace (usually because of indoor range restrictions).

[rodralig]

That was excellent shooting, outstanding group. Great trigger control drill.

I do something similar, a slightly modified SWAT qualification course from my old department.

All from the holster with speed reloads it?s from 3 to 25. 46 out of 50 go hits needed to qual. A go hit is in the white and next lighter shade of blue in the body.

3 yard-Failure drill x 2
3 yard- Failure drill retreating from target x 2
7 yard-Failure drill x 2
7 yard-Controlled pair strong hand x 2
7 yard-Controlled pair support hand x 2
10 yard-Failure drill x2
10 yard-Failure drill advancing on target x2
15 yard-Controlled pairs x 4 (move off your spot between pairs)
25 yard- Controlled Pairs x 2 (move off your spot between pairs)

This is a 49/50(1 head shot just out of the white)

Oh! I will be bookmarking this one... I did a mock LAPD Metro/SWAT qualifier with ITTS a couple of years back

https://internationaltactical.com/metroSwat_qual.html

However, I lost my notes on what were the strings of fire. What you wrote feels like what we did...

I wrote an AAR

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1715411

and here was my target





That said, do you have the time limits for each string?

Cheers!


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[tomrkba]

Big fan of LV?s test, I will usually run it with whatever handguns I take to the range or that I?m training with that day.

With 9mm and 40 never have a problem passing the test, I challenge myself by trying to shoot a low time. 7 and low 8 second range for 9mm is the norm with 40 in the mid to high 8?s and low 9?s.

My problem is with 45acp, granted I have not been shooting a lot with it this year. So far I?ve only ran it 5 times with a 45, four 1911s and a full side M&P and failed it each time.

Tighten your grip starting at pinky, lock wrist, lock elbow, push-pull from shoulders, nose over toes.

Today I shot it with my WC CQB, not from concealment but with a ALS retention holster. I was good and warm had already put about 100 rounds through the gun doing other various drills and quals. My draw felt solid and fast, got on target quickly. Had a good smooth rhythm going all eight rounds in the 10 for a score of 80, shot the darn X out. I thought I had it, until I glanced at my timer 10.27 failed again. It?s starting to get in my head now.

Tighten your grip more.

I also ran it with my Ruger Mark II, I know it?s cheating running that drill with 22?s but it?s fun. All 10 in the black with a 99 score in 5.77, with hardly any recoil you can shoot it smokin fast.

22 LR makes one lazy. I shot it all but exclusively during the second Obama ammo draught. I think I did 100 rounds of centerfire that year. It really messed me up. I had to buy a case of ammo and really work on things.

Think I?m just gonna have to start shooting my 45?s more, this is really starting to bug me. Anybody else run the Test with 45?s, wanna share their times and wisdom with me. I?ll take whatever I can get, gotta get past this.

[/QUOTE]

No, change your technique. Whatever you are doing is wrong if you pass with one gun but not another. You shouldn't pay too much attention to recoil until you get into something hot, like fast 357 Magnum or or mid-range 44 Magnum. You can do it with 40 S&W, which is annoying for what it delivers. If you can do 40, you should be able to do 45.

https://youtu.be/WVmDA95NvO8

[stormvet]

Sorry don’t have the times off the top of my head, I’d have to dig through some old records to find them.

When I first started running it many years ago, I’d use a timer. But after always running it well under the time limits (they are generous) I just stopped using a timer on it.

[rodralig]

When I first started running it many years ago, I?d use a timer. But after always running it well under the time limits (they are generous) I just stopped using a timer on it.

Good point there! I would agree - the times are very generous.

I was told that if I made full use of the allotted par, I would have gotten a perfect score. Since it was my first time, I told the LAPD officer, "... at least I know there is room for improvement..."



BTW, nice insight on recoil management from Hwansik Kim (along with Ben Stoeger on the PTSG group) -




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[static2126]

Agreed with poster above that .22lr makes you lazy.

Been.shooting a .22lr ruger lcr a ton and it it was useful for the heavy trigger but def affected my shooting.

That said been shooting a bit too much (about 3 to 4 times a week last 5 weeks) and going to take a month off. Will be interesting to see how dry fire only maintenance is and skillset loss