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Larry Vickers Test and 45 acp.

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  • stormvet
    I need a LIFE!!
    • Mar 2010
    • 10287

    Larry Vickers Test and 45 acp.

    Big fan of LV’s test, I will usually run it with whatever handguns I take to the range or that I?m training with that day.

    With 9mm and 40 never have a problem passing the test, I challenge myself by trying to shoot a low time. 7 and low 8 second range for 9mm is the norm with 40 in the mid to high 8?s and low 9?s.

    My problem is with 45acp, granted I have not been shooting a lot with it this year. So far I?ve only ran it 5 times with a 45, four 1911s and a full side M&P and failed it each time.

    Today I shot it with my WC CQB, not from concealment but with a ALS retention holster. I was good and warm had already put about 100 rounds through the gun doing other various drills and quals. My draw felt solid and fast, got on target quickly. Had a good smooth rhythm going all eight rounds in the 10 for a score of 80, shot the darn X out. I thought I had it, until I glanced at my timer 10.27 failed again. It?s starting to get in my head now.

    I also ran it with my Ruger Mark II, I know it?s cheating running that drill with 22?s but it?s fun. All 10 in the black with a 99 score in 5.77, with hardly any recoil you can shoot it smokin fast.

    Think I?m just gonna have to start shooting my 45?s more, this is really starting to bug me. Anybody else run the Test with 45?s, wanna share their times and wisdom with me. I?ll take whatever I can get, gotta get past this.
    Im a warmonger baby, I got blood in my eyes and I'm looking at you.
  • #2
    SG29736
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2009
    • 1047

    I took his class 6 or 7 years ago I believe. It was supposed to be his first class with Rob Leatham but Leatham had to skip it with an injury. Most of the others were military or law enforcement. This was at a small range near Phoenix. One group came from Minnesota.
    I can't remember the name of it but we did the other drill with shooting standing, kneeling, strong hand, weak hand all at about 20-21 yards. I did not do well on that. Actually the highlight for me was the test. 10 rounds at 10 yards in 10 seconds with all in the black (5.5"). I can't remember if he used the scoring rins other then they needed to be in the black. Most were shooting regular round nose 9mm. There was one other old guy (like me) shooting 45. I was shooting 200 gr swc my USPSA major ammo. One shooter went at a time with everyone else on the line watching. My 45 swc holes really stood out after all the 9mm. I put them all in the black in 8.2 seconds. I had brought some 10 round mags with me and used those. The younger guys were asking about my ammo. This was with my Wilson CQB. Not one malfunction in around 1000 rounds.
    It was a fun class. He is a character. The shooter who did the best on the slower paced 20 yard drill did not do well in the 10 yard test.

    Comment

    • #3
      sbo80
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 2260

      Do you even lift, bro? Joking aside, you are pointing out you already know the answer. Less recoil is easier to shoot fast. That's really why competition has power factor rules. Build some bunny-fart .45 rounds and you could shoot fast again. You didn't mention, but I assume your draw time is similar, and that means it's just your splits that are slower, resulting in the longer overall time.
      The only way to be the same speed on high-recoil and low-recoil shooting, is to recover shot-to-shot equally. If your splits are slower, that's what you are struggling on. Some of that is just pure strength, which is why the lifting joke, but it's also true to a point.
      You may try filming yourself from the side if you can. There might be a little bit of your technique that is slowing you down, if you over-correct pushing the muzzle down after recoil and then have to lift it back up to center. I know I do far worse with this with .45 than I do with 9, even if it's only an extra .2s per shot that would add up. That's still a "recoil management" issue, but it could point to what specifically you need to work on. If you're doing this, you need to get the gun flat and break the shot on the first time the sights go through the target. Yea, easier said than done. Practice, practice.
      It's the same kind of problem with transitioning left/right if you "rotate" too fast, go past your target and have to rubber-band back to center. You may be doing that vertically, because you're pushing too hard against the heavier recoil.

      Comment

      • #4
        stormvet
        I need a LIFE!!
        • Mar 2010
        • 10287

        Yeah it’s absolutely the splits that are killing me, I think you might be on to something with the over compensating and pushing the muzzle low and having to bring it back up. The 45 recoil is just different I don’t do it with 40, the muzzle may rise a little higher than 9 but it settle right back down on the target. Tracking just seems a lot slower with the 45 for some reason, I do reload my ammo a little on the hot side to more closely match the recoil of my carry rounds. So definitely not powder puff rounds, not looking to go that route. And yeah I’m an avid lifter, got some fairly impressive guns on me. Makes it all the more frustrating.
        Im a warmonger baby, I got blood in my eyes and I'm looking at you.

        Comment

        • #5
          broadside
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2016
          • 1484

          Can you pass it shooting 5yd? If so, then you need to determine your recoil mgmt issue. Slo-mo video from the side can help with that.

          Comment

          • #6
            Dr. Peter Venkman
            Veteran Member
            • Oct 2006
            • 4899

            It's your splits causing the issue, not the gun's. Your gun is cycling every ~.06 seconds. You should be sending another round off every .4-.5 seconds. That is enough time to confirm sight picture with each press. Your sight should be returning somewhere in the black of the B8 with some minute adjustment as needed. Send me a video of your shooting so I can see your support hand side.

            Recoil management is a passive skill, it is physically impossible to control recoil during the gun's cycling. The gun driving back down below the target during cycling is caused by excessive tension in the firing hand, or when making another shot caused by a flinch or change in grip pressure. Every time you press the trigger the gun should be returning very closely to where it was before.
            Last edited by Dr. Peter Venkman; 08-04-2023, 11:27 AM.
            sigpic
            "America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war; America is at the mall."
            Originally posted by berto
            You're right. There's no possible way that CGN members marching alongside the Pink Pistols in the SF Pride Parade can do anything to dispel the stereotype that gun owners are conservative bigots clinging to their guns and bibles. Not a single person in the crowd is rational or reachable because the parade's for gay folks and it's in SF.

            Comment

            • #7
              Citizen_B
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2014
              • 1429

              For what it's worth, I think you're on the right track. I normally shoot 9, but if I temporarily switch, I do better on splits with a 40 vs 45. To me, the 40 recoil is more "snappy" and the 45 more "pushy". That pushy feel messes with my timing so I spend more time (probably unnecessarily) waiting for settle. By not spending time on 45, it's hard for me to get the shooting rhythm down, while 40 seems easier to adjust to.

              Comment

              • #8
                stormvet
                I need a LIFE!!
                • Mar 2010
                • 10287

                Exactly the way I feel with it, there was a time when the majority of my handgun shooting was with 45 (2018 and earlier). I use to smoke the test with 45 back then, now that I don’t shoot it nearly as much I’m having issues with it. The recoil on a 45 is different than a 9 or 40 that’s for certain, having problems adjusting to it. I think now that I let it get into my head I’m over analyzing it and probably over compensating like the other poster said.

                The majority of my shooting now is with Glocks, running the test with them is never an issue 9 or 40. I do own a Glock 41 my only Glock 45acp, I have not run the Test with it in years. When I used to I almost always passed, think I’m gonna have to run it next.
                Im a warmonger baby, I got blood in my eyes and I'm looking at you.

                Comment

                • #9
                  sitruc
                  Member
                  • Nov 2016
                  • 465

                  I was under the impression this drill was supposed to be shot cold. You can keep running this drill trying to game it until you get a perfect score, but that is not the point. Drills are designed for you to fail and to expose your limits/weaknesses.

                  Nothing you said was anything to be concerned with. I've seen someone shoot a bill drill in 2 seconds and an el pres in 4 seconds clean. I can't shoot that fast but they clearly can. They failed those drills because they weren't pushing themselves hard enough.

                  Move yourself closer, increase your target size, or increase your time allotment until you get a perfect score. Then either move yourself back, shoot a smaller target, or lower your time allotment until you fail. Once you fail, you know where your limit is. Work on your fundamentals (trigger press, draw to first shot, recoil management, split times, etc.) and watch your time go down and accuracy go up. I would recommend not shooting this drill more than once per session.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    SG29736
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 1047

                    An El Presidente in 4 seconds seems to be pushing it pretty good. How many shooters can do that even just putting shots into the berm?

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      hambam105
                      Calguns Addict
                      • Jan 2013
                      • 7083

                      Shooting a clean El Pres in 4 seconds flat reliably? Show me.

                      Sitruc:
                      "Drills are designed for you to fail and to expose your limits/weaknesses."

                      Who told you this? Did he show you how to ricochet bullets into the maximum scoring ring as part of qualification too?

                      Range activity that is designed for failure? Failure. Who's failure? Ask the instructor for your money back. And remind him that Drugs & Alcohol on the range are prohibited.

                      And does anyone else believe this?

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        broadside
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2016
                        • 1484

                        Originally posted by hambam105
                        Shooting a clean El Pres in 4 seconds flat reliably? Show me.

                        Sitruc:
                        "Drills are designed for you to fail and to expose your limits/weaknesses."

                        Who told you this? Did he show you how to ricochet bullets into the maximum scoring ring as part of qualification too?

                        Range activity that is designed for failure? Failure. Who's failure? Ask the instructor for your money back. And remind him that Drugs & Alcohol on the range are prohibited.

                        And does anyone else believe this?

                        Drills are designed to fail. That is why once you master one, you up the challenge, more distance, lower par time, more X's, etc. You figure out what is not working and how to improve until you master that next set of criteria. Then adjust again and fail at those until you get better.

                        If you are not trying to get better then your drills are passive and either just confirming your current ability no matter how high or low, or wasting ammo.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          IVC
                          I need a LIFE!!
                          • Jul 2010
                          • 17594

                          Originally posted by SG29736
                          An El Presidente in 4 seconds seems to be pushing it pretty good. How many shooters can do that even just putting shots into the berm?
                          USPSA classification for El Presidente is 4.7 seconds clean for Open GM and just over 5 seconds clean for Limited GM. Four seconds aren't a problem mechanically (into the berm), but extremely challenging to get good hits because there are four transitions. And this classifier is completely shot out (hero-or-zero approach to get high hit factors).
                          sigpicNRA Benefactor Member

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                          • #14
                            IVC
                            I need a LIFE!!
                            • Jul 2010
                            • 17594

                            Originally posted by hambam105
                            Sitruc:
                            "Drills are designed for you to fail and to expose your limits/weaknesses."
                            ...
                            Range activity that is designed for failure? Failure. Who's failure?
                            ...
                            And does anyone else believe this?
                            Originally posted by broadside
                            Drills are designed to fail. That is why once you master one, you up the challenge, more distance, lower par time, more X's, etc.
                            Practice drills are to push the limits (and fail), standardized tests (classifiers, drills that have a name, standard courses of fire and alike) are intended to measure performance and are usually not good for training.

                            I wouldn't consider El Presidente or Larry Vickers Test a "drill" in the training sense. It's not something you set up thinking "I'm going to work on this until I get it right." It's something you set up once in a while to see whether your current skill is above or below the threshold and by how much.
                            sigpicNRA Benefactor Member

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                            • #15
                              SG29736
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 1047

                              Originally posted by IVC
                              USPSA classification for El Presidente is 4.7 seconds clean for Open GM and just over 5 seconds clean for Limited GM. Four seconds aren't a problem mechanically (into the berm), but extremely challenging to get good hits because there are four transitions. And this classifier is completely shot out (hero-or-zero approach to get high hit factors).
                              I'm just pointing out that with all of the nay sayers who are never impressed with any drills or test results that very few shooters could even get the 12 shots off including a reload in 4 seconds. Yes GM shooters have the speed. It depends how you look at it too. In USPSA there is no requirement to hit all alphas. It's hit factor. If you ran it as a test and required all alphas it would be interesting to see what shooters of varying abilities would average to get all alphas say 50%of the time.

                              Just as a Bill drill is supposed to be all alphas at 7 yards but you see shooters posting videos shooting 16" steel.

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