Adventures in becoming a better shooter: Newbie progress journal!

[IVC]

For the OP, you should be doing dry fire in short sessions so you can use proper grip and not get tired. Remember you need to be honest with yourself in dry fire.

This cannot be emphasized enough - you HAVE TO know how your dry fire translates to your live fire and you HAVE TO make sure they match, otherwise you are wasting time (or worse) in dry fire.

Go slow and do each rep as perfect as possible. Good grip, good draw, good presentation, sight picture, trigger pull, good transitions, good reloads, etc.

Take this with a grain of salt - go slow ONLY while figuring out the motions. As soon as you know what you're doing, you HAVE TO go fast, even if you fumble a bit. You will never get fast by being slow. You will get fast by refining elements of technique *while* doing it fast.

The fine line is where you are trying to go faster than you can do it, but not so fast that you're missing critical parts. It's the zone where you're frustrated that you cannot do it correctly and where you can recognize impediments to your speed.

For example, if you want to be very fast on the draw, you have to react and move quickly from the front edge of the beep to the point you see your sights. You have to work on getting better grip on that initial explosive movement and on getting sights appear in front of your eyes mostly aligned *at the high speed*, not at the speed at which you can already execute. As long as you recognize bad grip and poor alignment while going fast, you have your homework for practice - fix grip and alignment, do not adjust your speed. In contrast, if you go at the speed where you get your grip correctly every time, you will not get faster - it's the speed at which you are at and you're just maintaining it. Only when you reach your desired goal time should you stick to maintaining it. The same goes for sight alignment - work on going very fast and *refining* how gun pops up in front of your eyes (e.g., you draw and by the par time you recognize your sights are in the C/D zone), not on having extra time to get the good sight picture (which is required for hard shots, but hard shots have higher par times for this reason).

The only way to get faster is to push the limit to where you cannot do it correctly anymore, then work on fixing things that are falling apart at speed. However, it is CRITICAL that you're honest and that you confirm your training in live fire - if you're doing it fast and sloppy (not honest about not doing it correctly), your live fire will suck. Sucking live fire compared to dry fire is a signal that you have to work on your honesty, not on your skill.

[IVC]

Everyone can learn to do a .80 first shot to a five yard target (in dry fire). You need to be able to do it when there are bullets in the gun and the hit matters.

I just clocked 0.78 to the A-zone live round at 5-yards in the recent Steven Anderson's class...
While the others were clocking at 0.70 or less...

Dry fire is only to "acceptable sight picture" precisely for this reason. There is extra time from the moment brain recognizes the sight picture and the trigger is pulled. They are quite different concepts.

Fast live fire draw at close distances is very achievable because you can always "cheat" on acceptable sight picture. I put it in quotes because it's really not cheating as long as you see *any* part of the gun and use it as a reference. It's only cheating if you're shooting off of (good enough) index. You don't have to see the sights aligned, you can see the front way above the back, confirm alignment and fire before you're in your normal shooting position (you shoot before the gun is all the way up). This is completely acceptable as long as you understand the limitations of this approach, i.e., you know out to what distance you can use what level of sight picture.

A good exercise is to draw on 50+ yard targets. Par time is 1.5 seconds if your final sight picture is such that you can pull the trigger fast (if you go with too small a target, you have to shift to "bullseye mode" and that's not what we are talking about; it takes more time). This is my "keeping me honest" test - 55 yard steel draw at my local range. The movement has to be very fast, but the sight picture has to be completely refined.

If you figure out these these two extremes, very close distance with barely any sight alignment and very large distance with very precise sight alignment, and if you can move your hands at the same speed for both and only use the extra time to settle the sights (which already should pop up very close to the final position), then you have figured out the correct speed for your draws.

[NorthBay Shooter]

IVC,
you are on point with your comments.

OP, you are getting some real good advice here, we all hope it helps. IVC was correct to point out my reference to going slow and making it perfect. You will never get fast going slow. One of the biggest jokes in competitive shooting is the famous slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Just so we are clear, fast is fast. Slow sucks. Once you get the basics together, then it is all about trying to shoot as fast as you can see. You start to learn to train your vision to see faster. Faster transitions, faster follow-ups. IVC, referenced this with the sight picture needed for a 50 yard shot is different than the sight picture needed for a 5 yard shot. All the stuff that happens up to the sight picture is exactly the same. Fast to the holster, fast to present to target, then a slight pause to verify the sight picture as your press starts to happen. The trigger should be at the wall as you do that final verification.

Also, just so we are clear, I am not at a point where I can shoot as fast as I can see and still be accurate. However, I am always trying to get faster and more accurate. I am just not trying to do it at the same time. If you are trying to learn to be accurate, don't bring the timer. Just shoot and learn to hit what you are aiming at. Then get the timer and find out what it is to go fast. If you want a 1.0 sec draw, then set the par time and do what it takes to get the gun drawn and shot in 1.0. Learn how to do this in dry fire so you don't ND into your (insert body part here). BTW, make sure you reset before every rep during this time. If the gun does not go click at the end, it means it went click sometime before it was on target.

Sorry for the ramble, too much time sitting in the home office watching conference calls...LOL

[captain_qwijibo]

Wow this thread blew up, with tons of great info!

I'm hoping to head to the range again tomorrow or Saturday, and to put some of this to the test to see improvement. THe grip-strength thing especially!

[captain_qwijibo]

Also, any suggestions on a timer? I'll have to figure out a holster as well, and also find a range that allows them once everyone opens back up…

[Crusader Matt]

Awesome and good for you! I think some shooters don't even record where their weapon(s) are sighted in at (certain distance/certain load) let alone keep a journal of their accuracy progress. The former alone is a lifesaver.

Also I highly recommend GunBlue490's videos on YouTube, great series about precision shooting:

(part 3 about sight picture is GOLD)

One about dry firing:

[Rez805]

The current "gold standard" for timers is the Pocket Pro (it's boxy, it's blue, and I'm sure you'll see lots of videos where someone is using it).

If you simply need a start signal then a shot timer app could suffice. I have a couple apps but they all have their quirks (e.g., one app designer used his infinite wisdom to decide that the stop beep should be comprised of two beeps back-to-back with differing tones . . . Beepbiip. Really annoying if your phone lags).

Since you noted that you'll be tracking progress it would be a good idea to pick up an actual timer.

[Rez805]

With respect to cross dominance: there's nothing wrong with that and it doesn't have to hold you back. Here's an first person view of a cross-dominant shooter who decided not to change anything

https://www.facebook.com/1davesevigny/videos/1593959337299739/

So you do have a choice. You can either tough it out and live with cross dominance as it seems to be what you've been doing.

Or

You could choose to train yourself to be right-eye dominant to match you hand (or learn to shoot left handed while keeping your left eye as the dominant eye). An eye patch might help with forcing you to choose any eye. And the end goal could be the ability to shoot with both eyes open with your preferred eye.

This is for pistol. Rifles and Shotguns present an interesting challenge with having to shoulder the stock. One solution presented from a BTDT gentleman who doesn't have the option to chose which eye was to use a high mount and tilt his head over the stock so he could use his left eye.

[captain_qwijibo]

The current "gold standard" for timers is the Pocket Pro (it's boxy, it's blue, and I'm sure you'll see lots of videos where someone is using it).

If you simply need a start signal then a shot timer app could suffice. I have a couple apps but they all have their quirks (e.g., one app designer used his infinite wisdom to decide that the stop beep should be comprised of two beeps back-to-back with differing tones . . . Beepbiip. Really annoying if your phone lags).

Since you noted that you'll be tracking progress it would be a good idea to pick up an actual timer.

[captain_qwijibo]

With respect to cross dominance: there's nothing wrong with that and it doesn't have to hold you back. Here's an first person view of a cross-dominant shooter who decided not to change anything

https://www.facebook.com/1davesevigny/videos/1593959337299739/

So you do have a choice. You can either tough it out and live with cross dominance as it seems to be what you've been doing.

Or

You could choose to train yourself to be right-eye dominant to match you hand (or learn to shoot left handed while keeping your left eye as the dominant eye). An eye patch might help with forcing you to choose any eye. And the end goal could be the ability to shoot with both eyes open with your preferred eye.

One thing I found was helping with the sight issue as well as my accuracy in general:

This is going to be kind of hard to describe, but I started the first session with my right arm at near full extension, with my support arm somewhat bent because my support side was closer to the target, but by the end of the session I started experimenting. Moving to a full-extension-or-damned-close stance meant that my group tightened up a bit, but it felt *incredibly* awkward to try and put the sight on target. This might be just because it was different, or because I'm a long-armed monkey boy, but it just felt "wrong". So I kept experimenting, and made a few notes.

I found that by moving the gun in closer to my face and (maybe 1.5-2 feet away?), my group tightened up *AND* I lost some of the left-and-low drift off of the target, with the most relevant improvement being that I could *instantly* lock on to the front sight with both eyes open and have no confusion over which was "real" and which was a lie from my non-dominant eye.

My plan for my next session out (and probably all of them going forward) is to actually take pics after each mag, and make a note on the target with a sharpie to make it clear what I changed for that sequence.

Then with more data to look at instead of just first mag/last mag, hopefully I'll be able to use a data-driven approach, especially once my Mantis arrives.

[rodralig]

To the OP

Sorry for the ramblings here... The Competition/Training is quiet compared to other sub-forums... So, any discussions that gets going, sometimes, we ramble on...

But good luck on your training!!! Post as much questions/inquiries, etc. and many of us are eager to help. On a side-note, I, too, have a Mantis (the X10 Elite) - I got the first generation when I started in firearms, it was very useful. When the X10 came out, I got mine upgrade almost for FREE as an early adopter - still using it (and sometimes working with their developers with a few issues, requests, etc.). Throw me your questions, etc.

That said, I just found out that Robert Vogel has a new video regarding grip. Check it out and see if it works for you:





PS: I am cross-eyed dominant, as well.

Sorry I missed it. Even more sorry as I listened to Steve's podcast this weekend with the recap from a class in OR. Everyone is having too much fun shooting with him. Looking forward to reading your AAR.

I really want to train with him. Not sure if he is going to make it to Richmond this year. Did the sign-up for the class post yet?

Class with Steve is WAY fun! You should check out the podcast on the 28th - @RoundEye was co-host...!!! And some of us got special mention...

https://www.andersonshooting.com/podcast/episode/3bf77e8f/the-evolution-of-speed-how-to-get-faster

But yeah, I would understand your situation. My wife would've shot me as well, but, I managed a compromise that she'll get 3-days' off from the kids/housework (and a spa voucher).

I am not sure about the Richmond class, but for Steve, one can reach out to him via email (CCing RoundEye).

A good exercise is to draw on 50+ yard targets. Par time is 1.5 seconds if your final sight picture is such that you can pull the trigger fast (if you go with too small a target, you have to shift to "bullseye mode" and that's not what we are talking about; it takes more time). This is my "keeping me honest" test - 55 yard steel draw at my local range. The movement has to be very fast, but the sight picture has to be completely refined.

Absolutely!

Since most local matches, or at least those that I have access to, rarely go past 25-yards, I recently decided to work on long-range for dry practice with slide movement (that I can also practice speeding up my vision for shot calling). And of course, because I failed to deliver to my satisfaction in the CM 09-01 "Six in Six" classifier that Steve Anderson had us do in class!

Albeit not an IPSC target, it takes me about 1.5~1.6-sec from draw to stabilize an acceptable sight picture then fire a shot. It takes another 0.7-sec for the sights to come back, settle and me breaking the shot. Any deviation in grip pressure, or a lag in vision, or "El Snatcho" (quote from Larry Vickers) - and I miss 2.5-par.

For 50-yards! Dang! That is hardcore. You seriously need to have a consistent grip, fast vision and very good trigger control to make that draw to shot in 1.5-sec.

Sorry for the ramble, too much time sitting in the home office watching conference calls...LOL

Same here! For some reason, I am more stressed out,... tired when working from home (in spite of not having to deal with long commutes).



_

[IVC]

..., but by the end of the session I started experimenting.

This is very good and it will provide quite a bit of progress... a bit down the road.

At the moment, you need to sort out the "slow trigger pull." Being able to shoot a slow, no time limit groups. The grip and stance won't figure out into it. Yet. This is the time where you are allowed to stack the trigger on relatively easy shots and where you are learning internal mental mechanisms to get yourself to fire an accurate shot.

The way I trick the new(ish) shooters into getting the correct feeling is to have them apply a certain amount of pressure on the trigger and just keep it there. Then add a bit of pressure without firing the shot and still just keep it there. As they add pressure, I tell them to add the pressure *without* firing the shot for as long as they can. Inevitably, the gun will fire with the minute amount of extra pressure while the sights are on target (and have been for a while), resulting in a very accurate shot.

Get the above going and we'll call it a "level 0" trigger pull. You absolutely have to be able to execute this basic trigger pull before moving forward. The reason is actually quite simple - you cannot judge the effect of any change in technique unless you can guarantee that the effect is the consequence of the change, and not of you randomly getting a better trigger pull.

Just my 2c...

[NorthBay Shooter]

OP,
I am cross-eye dominate as well. I tried shooting with my right eye open and left eye closed, and the front sight was too fuzzy for me. I then just moved the gun a little left and shot with my right eye closed and left eye open. It worked much better. However, I decided to just learn to shoot with both eyes open. At some point, your brain just figures out which is the correct sight picture and you are good to go. You will wonder how you ever shot with an eye closed. I switched to shooting a dot in carry optics about 18 months ago and having both eyes open is the only way to go (since you are target focused).

[captain_qwijibo]

Well, things are starting to click. Full write up
Later, but:




Decided to work with “aim small, miss small”, and mechanics.


Changed the way I’m placing my finger on the trigger and increased the grip strength with thr support hand, and bringing the gun more to the left of my body.

[Erion929]

That said, although there is a general consensus on gripping the gun hard (mostly from the action shooting GMs/champions)

gripping the gun hard enough that if your hands are not getting tired after 10 minutes you are not doing it right. Recoil management is all about grip. However, your week hand should be gripping the gun like it owes you money. You should feel the pressure in your forearms not just your hands. If you are doing it right, the gun should settle right back to the exact sight picture you had on the prior shot without you having to help get the gun back on target.

During a break we went to the safe area, I gripped my gun strong hand and he put his left on on mine. He almost broke my fingers.

.

Good to read these comments. I struggle with recoil management....just too much damn flip. I can't get back on my sights worth a damn....hence I can't shoot fast

I watch videos all the time, and I believe my physical grip is fine. It's gotta be a PRESSURE thing....I'm just not commanding the gun with enough grip pressures, from all the body's sources. I *think* I'm gripping pretty hard.....but maybe I'm just NOT.

I just watched the Miculek video (personal instruction with the two YouTubing brothers) and he even says to lock the SHOULDERS

Next range trip, I'm going to grip HARD with support hand.... and CANT my hands inward HARD....and lock my shoulders HARD. I'm not even going to worry where the bullets go or what the target looks like...just concentrate on the gun not moving

Not worrying about the target results will be hard....as I always try to be fine with target shooting and do get good, tight group results. But the recoil flip is exasperating and I gotta get it down!!

OP captain_q.......target results looking much better!


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