Red Dot for 38spl

[Nutterdm]

I am new to reloading and the only powder I was able to obtain locally was red dot. Alliant's site has a recipe for speer 158gr LSWC and 148gr HBWC. While shopping online it seems that the speer 158gr LSWCHP is more readily available. My question is, would it be safe to use the data for the LSWC with the LSWCHP? The LSWC recipe calls for 3.4 grains and a Min OAL of 1.44in. Because I am not following the recipe exactly, I plan to start at 3.2 grains. Is there anything wrong with this plan?

Thanks

[Cowboy T]

You "should" be OK, but the official recommendation is, of course, to start at the minimum and work up. Personally, I'd start at 3.0 and move up.

[Nutterdm]

Thanks, will the hollow point effect the overall length of the cartridge? I plan to use caliper to measure the length of both projectiles when they arrive. I guess the real question is, in what way will the hollow point be larger? If the projectile has a hollow point and maintains the same mass (158grains), it must somehow be dimensionally larger correct? i don't want to increase pressure by decreasing the internal volume of the cartridge.

[at_liberty]

Thanks, will the hollow point effect the overall length of the cartridge? I plan to use caliper to measure the length of both projectiles when they arrive. I guess the real question is, in what way will the hollow point be larger? If the projectile has a hollow point and maintains the same mass (158grains), it must somehow be dimensionally larger correct? i don't want to increase pressure by decreasing the internal volume of the cartridge.

The general COL will be determined by the crimp groove location, but you may have to nearly cover it before crimping in order to stay under maximum COL. The real test is how they load and whether the cylinder cramps up (too long).

Nuances of minor pressure variations are not a concern in a low pressure round like 38 Special.

[rm1911]

Because I am not following the recipe exactly, I plan to start at 3.2 grains. Is there anything wrong with this plan?

Thanks

what gun are you shooting? if it's a 357 then no worries at all. if it's a true 38, you should be fine either way, especially if it's a modern 38. lead bullet loads are always lighter anyways, and truth is, you could go even lighter with the start load. 3.4, 3.2, even 3.0, it's gonna push the bullet out.

minor differences in bullet design aren't really an issue for revolver rounds, as you seat at the crimp groove. with a light charge make sure to give it some crimp. not a ton, but some, just to insure full powder ignition. bullet design differences are more an issue for autos, as some will feed better than others.

[Nutterdm]

Thanks rm1911. I will be shooting these from a s&w 642 j frame that is rated for 38spl+p. I got set up with a lee classic turret press with carbide dies. When you say light crimp, do you have an idea of how to accomplish that on the lee turret? Stage three seats the bullet while stage for crimps. Do I make an adjustment to the crimping die? Any other suggestions you all might have based on this info are welcome. Thanks again.

[rm1911]

Thanks rm1911. I will be shooting these from a s&w 642 j frame that is rated for 38spl+p. I got set up with a lee classic turret press with carbide dies. When you say light crimp, do you have an idea of how to accomplish that on the lee turret? Stage three seats the bullet while stage for crimps. Do I make an adjustment to the crimping die? Any other suggestions you all might have based on this info are welcome. Thanks again.

if rated for +p, you should be fine. in fact, with a short barrel, a heavier charge might not even burn all up in the barrel. but hey, a little muzzle blast is always good for photo ops!!

it's the dies not the press that matters in the crimp. I reload my 38/357's on a dillon square deal B, so I really can't tell you how to crimp with the standard dies, except that you're on the right path with seating and crimping separately.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469815

in the first pic, C is pretty much about right. D is more for a magnum type crimp. the third pic I think he seated the bullet a little too deeply. the crimp should be inside the groove, where in that pic it looks like the crimp is above the groove. the fourth is the same problem. seated to deeply. the rim of the case should be below the (whatever that thing is called) lip?? or part of bullet that engages rifling. there should be a noticeable gap between them. not much but noticeable, like in D in the first pic. the only problem with D in the first pic is it's a little too heavy for a 38, although it's actually quite usable. you just shorten case life a bit. In fact, you can clearly see in the first pic that the bullet in C is seated lower than D. D is the right depth. and just a bit too much crimp.

Hopefully that helps. when adjusting, so slowly. keep slightly turning down the crimp die until it's right. "right" would be an ever so slight pinching of the rim mouth. it'll go from straight to pinched rather quickly. that's about all you need.

[Nutterdm]

Thanks 1911, it looks like with the die set I have you can set the bullet seating die not to crimp at all and then Adjust the lee factory crimp die accordingly. I will run some LSWC and some LSWCHP through and post some pics for suggestion. Thanks

[Nutterdm]

Here are the results of my test run after setting up my press and getting my supplies. Measuring the projectiles, the LSWC comes in at .6650. The LSWCHP is .6850. This means that the coal of the LSWCHP will be .0200 longer than the LSWC to maintain the same internal measurements. Alliant's website states that the coal for the LSWC should be 1.44. This means that the coal for the LSWCHP should be 1.46. I am pretty comfortable with these measurements and have them dialed in on the press. Have a look at the pictures of my test subjects to evaluate my "light" crimp. I consider 1.4430 for the LSWC at right and 1.4610 for the LSWCHP at left to be my successes. What are your thoughts? Thanks
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[at_liberty]

Anyone focusing on COL data should be aware that load data includes the COL actually used in tests and the context of the other results, not necessarily the ideal COL.

[pacrat]

Anyone focusing on COL data should be aware that load data includes the COL actually used in tests and the context of the other results, not necessarily the ideal COL.

Echo that.

Along with the understanding that "published data" reflects Max. COAL as determined by SAAMI. That is so that ammo will fit/function in ALL SAAMI spec firearms. Also because modern component makers who publish data have as many lawyers as they do ballisticians.

With a revolver the only limiting factor to what COAL "can be", is determined by the lenght of the cyl. Just as with a rifle or semi auto pistol it is determined by both magazine lenght and chamber dimensions.

Whether sticking strickly to SAAMI specs or outside the published data box on load developement. It is of utmost importance to always start low and work up slow in small increments. No matter what.

Load Safe, Shoot Happy

BTW.......Red Dot is an excellent old school powder for 38 spl

JM2c

[stilly]

I think you are making things complicated.

Red dot is GREAT for all kinds of stuff though. Too bad I do not know where you are located at. I could assist you a tad...

I would do as others have said, start with what fits in your gun and with a low charge of red dot and work your way up. Then maybe press the pills in a little more and shorten them a tad. It is .38 spl, not rocket surgery. Have fun and try to get away from some of these technicalities like the measurements and what is best. Sure, make a note, try them out and see if you even like how the charges work, if you do, THEN start dialing them in and deciding what is best for you. Else you could be wasting your time with all of the excess work for nothing.


Oh yeah and visual appealing to me would be 1.4355 and 1.4430 or both of the inside ones... :\

[Nutterdm]

Thanks for the tips.

I reloaded and shot 50 rounds of the 158gr LSWC with 3.0 grains of red dot. They shot well.

I have a concern with my lee auto disk powder measure: In testing, it seems to be a bit inconsistent. Over a series of throws it will get CLOSE, but not Exact. I get anywhere from 2.9 grains to 3.2 grains per drop. Could this be due to the fact that red dot is not a spherical powder? Suggestions welcome.

I plan to load more at 3.1 and 3.2 so it would be nice to be able to tune the auto disk so I do not have to weigh every single charge. Is that asking too much?

Also, 1911 said "in fact, with a short barrel, a heavier charge might not even burn all up in the barrel." What does this look like? I took a video while shooting a cylinder. Just wondering.

Furthermore, I ran into a guy who has some different powders available. Loading 38spl and using a lee auto disk, what would be a good powder?

[at_liberty]

Thanks for the tips.

I reloaded and shot 50 rounds of the 158gr LSWC with 3.0 grains of red dot. They shot well.

I have a concern with my lee auto disk powder measure: In testing, it seems to be a bit inconsistent. Over a series of throws it will get CLOSE, but not Exact. I get anywhere from 2.9 grains to 3.2 grains per drop. Could this be due to the fact that red dot is not a spherical powder? Suggestions welcome.

I plan to load more at 3.1 and 3.2 so it would be nice to be able to tune the auto disk so I do not have to weigh every single charge. Is that asking too much?

Also, 1911 said "in fact, with a short barrel, a heavier charge might not even burn all up in the barrel." What does this look like? I took a video while shooting a cylinder. Just wondering.

Furthermore, I ran into a guy who has some different powders available. Loading 38spl and using a lee auto disk, what would be a good powder?

If you were measuring with an adjustable charge bar, know that it is not accurate under 5 grains of many powders. Use the small aperture disks and settle for the closest resulting weight to the load you want, as long as it is consistent. I usually try for powders that require 5 grains or more or which are compatible with the range of the small disk apertures. Sometimes the tail wags the dog, given some choices in powders.

[JagerDog]

Looks like you're on the right track. But instead of "adapting" the COAL, just use the crimp grooves to determine target COAL. Then measure and document for future loadings of same bullet.

Rimmed revolver rounds are pretty insensitive to COAL providing you don't impede too much on the remaining case volume.