weird 9mm I found

[Just.a.guy]

I was at the range a few minutes ago when I found a very weird 9mm round. It came from a box of Freedom Munitions reloads, and I was shooting a SIG P226. The head stamp is WCC, a circle with a plus inside, and the number 99 (see pictures below.)

The gun was working fine, then when I put this particular round in, it wouldn't detonate. When I tried to rack the slide, I found it very hard to open, almost like it was stuck shut. I used my big boy hands and pulled it open, and there was no dent in the primer. I put it back in the magazine, chamber it again, and the same thing happens. Gun goes click, slide is stuck closed. I cocked the hammer again, still nothing. Again, no dent in the primer.

I put that round off to the side, and tried some other ammo. I tried some other Freedom munitions loads, as well as my own reloads. They all functioned normally. I tried the weird round again, and the same thing: click but no boom, slide was stuck forward, when I forced it open the primer wasn't even dented.


I came home and inspected the round. It looked awfully beat up, probably from being chambered and ejected a few times. It has the same OAL as a regular 9mm (1.140") but several other dimensions were off a bit. The case length is about .764", compared to .746" for my other rounds. The rim is .382", (my other case measured .387", close enough) but the bottom of the case body, right below the rim, was actually smaller at .359". The case itself almost looks like a boat tail rifle bullet. The rim of this 9mm sticks out quite a bit, you can feel it distinctly as you run your fingers down it. My pictures aren't great, but hopefully they show some idea of what I'm talking about.

What's going on with this round? Why did it make my slide stick shut? I don't think its a 9x18 mak, or a .380. The case dimensions aren't right. Is this just a very worn case? Did Freedom Munitions cut something else and load it as a 9mm? Is there any reason why the primer wasn't even dented?

I'm very curious what the hell is going on here.

[ixta70]

My question, as I'm sure others will ask, is why did you try to use this round a third time? I get the second time, but if it gave the same results both times I wouldn't risk damaging my gun or self IMO.

[Jimmybacon43]

My question, as I'm sure others will ask, is why did you try to use this round a third time? I get the second time, but if it gave the same results both times I wouldn't risk damaging my gun or self IMO.

^ I probably wouldn't have even tried it a second time if it failed to go off and caused the slide to stick.

Still, I'm interested to find out what it is. If it's remanufactured ammo who knows how many times the brass has been fired and resized.

[stilly]

My question, as I'm sure others will ask, is why did you try to use this round a third time? I get the second time, but if it gave the same results both times I wouldn't risk damaging my gun or self IMO.

Beause he is a cheap bastid which means his next few posts will be about starting into reloading. NOW he just got bit by the bug and was left sitting dazed and confused as to how this round completely put a kabash on his shooting activities and he wants to study how one bullet can make it all come to a grinding halt and in the process he will pick up a degree in nine-millimetery and maybe even some unglockabashing to the 40th degree...

Some day this poster will be here posting about the very first time he became interested in dissecting a live round to see why it failed to detonate...

He may be just a guy NOW, but he is on his way to fame, women and reloading hall of fame. Okay, let's leave out the women part, we all know there are no hot women in reloading unless they are in a Dillon Blue Press magazine... but he will be a reloaded one day just watch...


Lite primer strike and possible weak recoil spring? Is your gun in good working order and I wonder if they managed to get a 556 prier in there with his light springs... Hmmmmmm. Sigs are not known for that but the tightness makes me think that it was sized bad, BUT, did your gun get into battery fully? You said it clicked but was it actually able to strike the firing pin or not? Perhaps one slipped by the quality checks and into a box. That is why it is blaster ammo...

If it fit into my gun and I had a sig, I would STILL be down there recocking my sig and firing it until the primer bleeds or until it is time to go home...

just saying...

[Just.a.guy]

My question, as I'm sure others will ask, is why did you try to use this round a third time? I get the second time, but if it gave the same results both times I wouldn't risk damaging my gun or self IMO.

I may have embellished the story a bit, leaving out unnecessary details. I wasn't actually the shooter, my mother found the bad round. She tapped me on the shoulder and said her gun (she owns the sig) wasn't working. I go over, try to tap-rack-bang, and thats when I ran into the sticky slide. I clear it, tell her it's probably just dirty, nothing to worry about. I go back over to my lane to keep shooting, and she comes and gets me again a minute later. I guess she put the same round back into the top of the magazine, and that's when it happened the second time. At that point, I grabbed the gun, ran a bunch of other rounds through it, different mags, it all worked great. I put the bad round back in to confirm that was the problem, and it was. It was for trouble shooting purposes.

Beause he is a cheap bastid which means his next few posts will be about starting into reloading. NOW he just got bit by the bug and was left sitting dazed and confused as to how this round completely put a kabash on his shooting activities and he wants to study how one bullet can make it all come to a grinding halt and in the process he will pick up a degree in nine-millimetery and maybe even some unglockabashing to the 40th degree...

Some day this poster will be here posting about the very first time he became interested in dissecting a live round to see why it failed to detonate...

He may be just a guy NOW, but he is on his way to fame, women and reloading hall of fame. Okay, let's leave out the women part, we all know there are no hot women in reloading unless they are in a Dillon Blue Press magazine... but he will be a reloaded one day just watch...

I've been reloading since last Christmas. I've made about 1500 rounds of .45, 500 .40's, and a few hundred .223 on my lee single stage press. Obviously my experience pales in comparison to most members here, but I wouldn't say that I've "just got bit" by the bug. I am well and truly infected!

Lite primer strike and possible weak recoil spring? Is your gun in good working order and I wonder if they managed to get a 556 prier in there with his light springs... Hmmmmmm. Sigs are not known for that but the tightness makes me think that it was sized bad, BUT, did your gun get into battery fully? You said it clicked but was it actually able to strike the firing pin or not? Perhaps one slipped by the quality checks and into a box. That is why it is blaster ammo...

If it fit into my gun and I had a sig, I would STILL be down there recocking my sig and firing it until the primer bleeds or until it is time to go home...

just saying...

The gun is fairly new, so I don't think the recoil spring would have worn out this soon. It's had maybe 500 rounds through it? The only malfunction that it's ever had was that the trigger return spring popped out of its indent, but that wouldn't cause anything like this. It went fully into battery, as far as I could tell. When it clicked, the hammer dropped, but nothing else made a sound. It sounded like a dry fire. I tried it again double action, just pulled the trigger again, but the same result: just a click, no boom.

[stilly]

I may have embellished the story a bit, leaving out unnecessary details. I wasn't actually the shooter, my mother found the bad round. She tapped me on the shoulder and said her gun (she owns the sig) wasn't working. I go over, try to tap-rack-bang, and thats when I ran into the sticky slide. I clear it, tell her it's probably just dirty, nothing to worry about. I go back over to my lane to keep shooting, and she comes and gets me again a minute later. I guess she put the same round back into the top of the magazine, and that's when it happened the second time. At that point, I grabbed the gun, ran a bunch of other rounds through it, different mags, it all worked great. I put the bad round back in to confirm that was the problem, and it was. It was for trouble shooting purposes.

I've been reloading since last Christmas. I've made about 1500 rounds of .45, 500 .40's, and a few hundred .223 on my lee single stage press. Obviously my experience pales in comparison to most members here, but I wouldn't say that I've "just got bit" by the bug. I am well and truly infected!

The gun is fairly new, so I don't think the recoil spring would have worn out this soon. It's had maybe 500 rounds through it? The only malfunction that it's ever had was that the trigger return spring popped out of its indent, but that wouldn't cause anything like this. It went fully into battery, as far as I could tell. When it clicked, the hammer dropped, but nothing else made a sound. It sounded like a dry fire. I tried it again double action, just pulled the trigger again, but the same result: just a click, no boom.

Was this a 2022 sig or a regular steel framed one? Cause when that happened on my deagle, well, 6th time was the charm and it finally went off... but the primer was not hit at all? You got closeups of that primer? I wonder if it is a 5.56 primer... Does not make sense, but the other thing is the tightness in pulling back suggests that it was not sized properly I think. But hey, I am just a guy on the interwebZ... :\ Others will be here soon to tell you better what prolly happened. Pull it apart and light that powder- does it burn? Put the shell into another gun and shoot it, when you pull it out does the primer looked backed out of the shell about half a mm? resize the shell, get a new primer, recharge it and load it up with the same bullet and go shoot it...

You conceal your experience well grasshoppa. Soon the student shall be the teacher!

[Just.a.guy]

Was this a 2022 sig or a regular steel framed one? Cause when that happened on my deagle, well, 6th time was the charm and it finally went off... but the primer was not hit at all? You got closeups of that primer? I wonder if it is a 5.56 primer... Does not make sense, but the other thing is the tightness in pulling back suggests that it was not sized properly I think. But hey, I am just a guy on the interwebZ... :\ Others will be here soon to tell you better what prolly happened. Pull it apart and light that powder- does it burn? Put the shell into another gun and shoot it, when you pull it out does the primer looked backed out of the shell about half a mm? resize the shell, get a new primer, recharge it and load it up with the same bullet and go shoot it...

You conceal your experience well grasshoppa. Soon the student shall be the teacher!

Its a full steel 226. No, the primer was not hit at all. Not a scratch or dent on it. I attached a close up of the primer; its not great because my phone is having trouble focusing on something that small. I'll try to steal my brothers camera tomorrow and use some daylight to get a better picture.

The tightness on the slide, combined with the weird dimensions, almost makes me think its not a 9mm brass. It certainly looks like it, but several dimensions are off by a couple hundredths. That, and the fact that the case wall is almost sloped. It's wider at the mouth, than at the base of the case. Again, it almost looks like a boat-tail bullet, but it's the case. My pictures don't really capture it, but it's definitely wrong. Maybe they found a .380 or something, and shoved a 9mm bullet in? That doesn't explain why it would have a military head stamp, though.

I'll pull the bullet and test the powder tomorrow. I'll punch out the primer, and see if it looks funny. I'm not going to drive all the way back to the range just to test one round, but I'll run it through a sizing die and see if anything changes. I did have one other 9mm with me at the range tonight, but I didn't even think to try this round in it.

[shinbone]

Could it be a .223 case cut down to 19mm?

[Burbur]

It's definitely 9x19, that is a NATO Cross. It was made by the Winchester Cartridge Company in 1999. Somebody had some military reloads.

When a case is too big, it can jam in the chamber and if the extractor on the 226 engages the groove, can give you a hell of a time. I push the slide against the wooden 4x4 leg of my workbench when this happens. That said, the measurements in your pictures do not indicate the cartridge being large; if anything, the diameter is a bit small. The case length may be long, or because you are holding your calipers at an angle.

Drop the cartridge in the barrel (or case gauge). Does it rattle around?

Chamber it in the Sig and close the slide. Did it go all the way into battery? Is the back of the slide aligned with the frame? This would be my #1 concern; rap-tap-kaboom.

I like Stilly's idea. Pull the bullet, toss a match to the powder. Chamber the primed brass, see if you can get it to go POP.

[huckberry668]

9x19 chamber depth is spec'ed between .754" to .776". Most commercial 9x19 chambers are cut to slightly longer than .754" but mostly less than .760" if I recall correctly.

In my opinion from the info you provided, your .764" brass would likely cause friction lock of the slide/barrel assembly if your P226 chamber depth is shorter than .764". If you load it again (don't shoot it), you should see the barrel and slide wouldn't lock up completely correctly. It caused 'out of battery' condition (activating the disconnector) which was why the gun couldn't fire. And you should thank God it didn't... cuz it could be bloody and costly otherwise.

Since other dimensions checked out, I'd say this could very well be the answer you seek.

Zero your caliper's 'depth probe' (tail end, see part 5 from link below) to measure your p226 chamber from the chamber's inside edge to the hood. It'd be the reason if it measure less than .764".

http://www.measuring-tools.biz/measuring-instruments/parts-caliper.html

[Bastard]

I think that it is just improperly sized brass - measure above the rim - I think that you will find a case bulge which would not allow it to go in to full battery, probably stops just shy... have to tried to "plunk test" it?

[MR_X]

Measure the bullet diameter.

[Just.a.guy]

Measure the bullet diameter.

I haven't pulled it yet, but in the case it measures .350.

I think that it is just improperly sized brass - measure above the rim - I think that you will find a case bulge which would not allow it to go in to full battery, probably stops just shy... have to tried to "plunk test" it?

by "above the rim", do you mean on the wall towards the rim? I did, that's what my other picture is. .359". It's not bulged, its actually smaller diameter than I think it should be. I dropped it in just the barrel, and it fits in fine front to back, no different than another 9mm. It does rattle just a hair side to side, though. I didn't notice that when I tried it last night.. The rim is flush against the top/back of the chamber. Again, I tried to get pictures but my camera won't focus.

Could it be a .223 case cut down to 19mm?

Doubt it. The rim is different size, and the case wall would be much thicker.

It's definitely 9x19, that is a NATO Cross. It was made by the Winchester Cartridge Company in 1999. Somebody had some military reloads.

When a case is too big, it can jam in the chamber and if the extractor on the 226 engages the groove, can give you a hell of a time. I push the slide against the wooden 4x4 leg of my workbench when this happens. That said, the measurements in your pictures do not indicate the cartridge being large; if anything, the diameter is a bit small. The case length may be long, or because you are holding your calipers at an angle.

Drop the cartridge in the barrel (or case gauge). Does it rattle around?

Chamber it in the Sig and close the slide. Did it go all the way into battery? Is the back of the slide aligned with the frame? This would be my #1 concern; rap-tap-kaboom.

I like Stilly's idea. Pull the bullet, toss a match to the powder. Chamber the primed brass, see if you can get it to go POP.

It does rattle a bit, as I mentioned. I didn't notice it last night, but I just tried it again and there is some lateral play in the chamber.

You're right, the slide does not drop all the way. I didn't even notice this last night at the range, it's just very slightly out of battery. I included pictures of the front of the slide rail, and the very back of the slide by the hammer.

9x19 chamber depth is spec'ed between .754" to .776". Most commercial 9x19 chambers are cut to slightly longer than .754" but mostly less than .760" if I recall correctly.

In my opinion from the info you provided, your .764" brass would likely cause friction lock of the slide/barrel assembly if your P226 chamber depth is shorter than .764". If you load it again (don't shoot it), you should see the barrel and slide wouldn't lock up completely correctly. It caused 'out of battery' condition (activating the disconnector) which was why the gun couldn't fire. And you should thank God it didn't... cuz it could be bloody and costly otherwise.

Since other dimensions checked out, I'd say this could very well be the answer you seek.

Zero your caliper's 'depth probe' (tail end, see part 5 from link below) to measure your p226 chamber from the chamber's inside edge to the hood. It'd be the reason if it measure less than .764".

http://www.measuring-tools.biz/measu...s-caliper.html

Using my cheapo harbor freight calipers, I get .761" for the chamber depth. That's shorter than the brass, that explains why the slide locks shut. Good catch, I didn't even think to measure the chamber depth.

All good answers, thanks for all the information folks. That still doesn't explain what the hell happened to this brass? Is it just old? Loaded too many times and stretched out? Is mil brass longer than civilian (I've never heard of this before)

[huckberry668]

Using my cheapo harbor freight calipers, I get .761" for the chamber depth. That's shorter than the brass, that explains why the slide locks shut. Good catch, I didn't even think to measure the chamber depth.

All good answers, thanks for all the information folks. That still doesn't explain what the hell happened to this brass? Is it just old? Loaded too many times and stretched out? Is mil brass longer than civilian (I've never heard of this before)

the NATO headstamp explains it. All I can find is 9mm NATO vs 9x19 in terms of pressure differences. Like I said, the chamber depth spec is between .754" to .776". The case is probably just too long. Resizing straight wall cases doesn't usually stretch the brass unless the brass was blown out excessively. I have resized some more than 20 times and measured less than .001" increase in case length.

See if you can find any other brass of the same headstamp and measure them to compare.

[huckberry668]

BTW, 1 little note to share with you all on the disconnector. Make sure you check the gun for out of battery disconnect when buying used pistols. I saw a few where previous owners filed down the disconnector for some reason and caused the guns able to fire out of battery.

Here is how, chamber empty and in battery condition, push/pull the slide back as little as you can, 1/8", 1/16". Check to make sure the trigger is disengaged so it won't fire or release the hammer.