Barnes TTSX loose

[FLIGHT762]

For your hunting ammo, I would use the H-4350, it's temperature stable and will give you top velocities. A very good powder.

One of my favorite 30/06 165 grain load uses IMR 4350. When I burn all of the IMR up, I have a couple of new cans of H-4350 to switch over to.

[Gasman]

I see several issues going on here.

First, as far as the brass that you were originally using is concerned, how many times had they been reloaded? If it was 3-4 times (or sometimes even less), they may have become brittle in the neck and shoulder area from being worked, which can lead to loss of neck tension. Annealing can resolve this problem (or see #4).

Secondly, I'd strongly recommend that you pick up a Lee Collet Neck die and neck size your brass. I'd also pick up some undersized mandrels for the LCN die directly from Lee so that you can adjust neck tension. You should also pick up a Redding body die to bump the shoulder back if/when necessary.

Thirdly, if you're not turning the necks on your brass or using brass that is extremely consistent in neck thickness (like Lapua or Norma), I'd forgo bushing dies.

Fourth, especially as you're investing on a moose hunt, I'd ditch the brass that you're currently using and purchase some Lapua brass. At less than $1 apiece, it's a good investment that will likely solve some of your issues.

Fifth, as someone else posted, the 168 TTSX is a better projectile for the 30-06 than the 180 and will give you more reliable expansion. Don't overlook the 180 or 200 Partitions, though - if I were doing a moose hunt, I'd be using one of those bullets (I suspect that you're not hunting moose here in CA).

Sixth, crimping is fine in a bolt action and may actually lead to smaller SD's and increased accuracy. Only trial and error will tell.

Seventh, you're hunting moose. That's a huge target, and you're not going to be shooting it at 500 yards (not if you're smart, at least). Forget about doing a ladder test and just shoot for groups at 100 yards.

[B W E]

Thanks for the advice Gasman. The brass was all FC, once fired. Switched to PMC, same issue. Switched to Winchester, perfectly snug. So, after screwing with this for a week or so, I've finally got:
8 foulers
10 180gr. TTSX (loose-ish, but crimped with 47gr. 4064, FC brass)
10 180gr. TTSX (resized with no expander, PMC brass, 48gr 4064)
20 180gr. TTSX, standard resize, Win Brass, 48gr. 4064)
10 180gr. Nosler Partition, FC brass, 47gr 4064
10 180gr. Nosler Partition, FC brass, 47.5gr. 4064
10 180gr. Nosler Partition, FC brass, 48gr. 4064
10 180gr. Nosler Partition, FC brass, 48.5gr. 4064
8 180gr. Nosler Partition, FC brass, 56.5gr. H4350

Should be enough to chrony and see how they group. I plan on 1/2 of each group going through the chrony, and the other half for grouping. I have a feeling I'll be dropping down to the 168gr TTSX, however, out to 300 yards it's virtually identical to the 180, trading off a little energy for speed.

[Gasman]

I hope you find a good load tomorrow, but IMO you're dealing with too many variables at once - 3 makes of brass, 2 bullets, and 2 different powders. That makes it difficult to derive much useful information.

Also, just curious, why can't you chrono and shoot for groups at the same time?

[ElvenSoul]

I have seen the work 180gr TTSX 30-06 does to a bear. I almost pity the moose your going to shoot.

[Kit1885]

Neck tension is what holds the bullet. The crimp is only used to prevent bullet setback. Crimp is unnecessary in a bolt action, necessary in a tube magazine and recommended in a semiauto.

crimping is part of the process that supports the bullet in-line
Kitt

[B W E]

crimping is part of the process that supports the bullet in-line
Kitt

But crimping should not be the only thing that holds the bullet in place. That's the job of neck tension.

[B W E]

Making Progress....

Ok, so I made it out to the range today to see how my moose bullets did. I was pleasantly surprised with velocity, as everything I shot chrony'd higher than Nosler and Barnes listed (Barnes Max: 2639, Nosler Max: 2769 with H4350. IMR-4064 Not listed). As far as accuracy goes, considering I was shooting from a ridiculous position to both go through the chrony and hit my targets, coupled with the full value 20-40 mph winds, Im happy, with all of it really. Also worth noting is that recently (the last 600-800 rounds) I had been experiencing a very high FTF rate, in the neighborhood of 20% consistently. I adjusted my sizing die and that problem is gone. I have also switched primers from WLR to CCI 200, but I don't think that had anything to do with it. Group sizes were nothing to write home about, yet just fine for the boiler room of a moose within 300 yards. Anyways.... here's my results:

Oh, and the TTSX ONLY work with Winchester Brass. Everything else I used I either had to crimp, or resize without the expander. Winchester it is.
First....It was so windy, I had the range all to myself


Up first, Barnes 180gr. TTSX. IMR-4064, 48gr. CCI 200 primer, PMC brass. No expander used in resizing.
5 shots: 2723, 2738, 2720, 2754, 2736
Average: 2734 fps
Range: 34 fps
Standard Deviation: 13.57
Group Size: 2.465"


Next, Barnes 180gr TTSX. IMR-4064, 48gr. CCI 200 primer, WIN Brass. Standard resize.
10 Shots: 2744, 2761, 2730, 2743, 2731, 2734, 2733, 2719, 2731, 2741
Average: 2736
Range: 42
Standard Deviation: 11.28
Group Size: 2.10"
(that cluster on the left with the "5" underneath is 3 shots)


Next is Barnes TTSX 180gr. IMR-4064 47gr. CCI 200 primer, FC Brass with crimp.
10 Shots: 2677, 2729, 2678, 2725, 2718, 2745, 2743, 2732, 2724, 2738
Average: 2720
Range: 68
Standard Deviation: 24.38
Group Size: 3.440"


Next, Nosler Partition, 180gr. H4350, 56.5 gr. CCI 200 primer, PMC brass.
8 Shots: 2868, 2871, 2842, 2882, 2886, 2865, 2880, 2868
Average: 2870
Range: 44
Standard Deviation: 13.71
Group Size: Unknown. Minus the flyer, about 2"
(These shot a lot flatter, and put me off the paper, 3" High, 2" right. This is the top right group)


Next, Nosler Partition IMR-4064 47gr. CCI 200 primer, FC brass
10 shots: 2685, 2688, 2667, 2661, 2649, 2671, 2661, 2660, 2669, 2680
Average: 2669
Range: 39
Standard Deviation: 12.26
Group Size: 3.180"


Next, Nosler Partition IMR-4064 47.5gr. CCI 200 primer, FC brass
10 Shots: 2685, 2670, 2673, 2689, 2677, 2678, 2687, 2684, 2679, 2697
Average: 2681
Range:27
Standard Deviation: 8.07
Group Size: 2.390" Not counting Backwards shot.
(The last shot sat in the HOT chamber for about 6 minutes. My target stand is un-glued PVC fittings. The wind caused one leg of my target to separate, causing it to blow around in the wind. I waited to get a "broadside" shot, but it never came. Finally, it spun around enough that I shot through the back of the target at what looked like a bunch of holes. Thats why that hole to the left looks so weird. It was a quartering shot from the back side. PHOTOBUCKET FOR SOME REASON HAS THIS ROTATED RIGHT 90 DEGREES)


Next, Nosler Partition IMR-4064 47.5gr. CCI 200 primer, FC brass
10 Shots: 2681, 2653, 2660, 2641, 2671, 2721, 2699, 2694, 2775, 2718
Average: 2691
Range: 134
Standard Deviation: 39.66
Group Size: 3.415"
(PHOTOBUCKET FOR SOME REASON HAS THIS ROTATED RIGHT 90 DEGREES)


Last but not least, Nosler Partition IMR-4064 47.5gr. CCI 200 primer, FC brass
10 Shots: 2796, 2772, 2753, 2755, 2756, 2753, 2759, 2750, 2769, 2748
Average: 2761
Range: 48
Standard Deviation: 14.50
Group Size: 3.55"
TOP RIGHT GROUP

[Fordtrucks]

That looks like a good long day at the range.

[Trevor]

What range is that?

[B W E]

What range is that?

Angeles Shooting Range.

[B W E]

Finally heard back from Barnes. By that, I mean they didn't respond to my email, and Ryan, the guy I spoke to a week after sending the email never called me back like he said. So, I called them today and spoke to a different Ryan. He suggested backing out the seating die 1-2 turns from the point where it contacts the case mouth with the ram all the way up.

I tried this with a piece of regularly sized FC brass and it worked. He said that even with the seating die backed out the normal 1/2 - 2/3 of a turn, it still applies the slightest of crimps, which on lead core bullets wouldn't make a difference because they're softer. Because the solid copper TTSX is so hard, it would push through that crimp and cause the neck to open up enough to ruin neck tension.

Picked up another box of the TTSX today. Provided they seat properly, I'll load 40 rounds for my moose trip.