Barnes TTSX loose

[Divernhunter]

What cartridge are you loading? What brand dies are you using?
I load barnes TTSX bullets in 4 different calibers and for more than a half dozen different cartridges. I have not had a single problem.
Your neck tension is lacking. The grooves are not the problem.
You do know that a 150gr barnes will preform like a 195gr lead core bullet. Hope you are loading at least a 300mag if using the barnes bullets. You need to push the non-lead(such as barnes) bullets fast to get better performance and expansion. Another reason to drop down in bullet weight.
The Nosler partition bullets are excellent bullets and will work fine.
If you want to step up from the Noslers get Swift A-Frame bullets. The 165 gr bullet will do what you want quite nicely or if shooting a 300mag the 180gr if you must have a 180gr bullet. I would not suggest the 180gr in anything less than a 300mag

PM me if you want some help with your loads. I have a bunch of data and load development work. I have also loaded the barnes bullets as well as the swift and Nosler bullets.

[B W E]

Thanks for all the replies thus far guys. I've been busy this past week or so, apologies for not responding to specific questions.

Based on the numerous other forums I've come across with guys having the same problem, I decided to contact Barnes to get their input. After not getting a response to my e-mail for a week, I called them today and Spoke to Ryan. He said he'd call me back today.

I went down and loaded 3 rounds, a 180gr Nosler Partition, 150gr Hornady FMJBT, and another TTSX. The Nosler and Hornady were perfect, with plenty of neck tension. Couldn't get the bullet to move at all. The TTSX, though, was loose as a goose. Spins very easily, and moves back and forth a tiny bit.

Divernhunter, this is for .30-06.

here's a video showing the three different bullets and the loose TTSX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca9S-4kpEhc

[FLIGHT762]

Pull them all and resize them without the expander ball

Did you try this ?

This is the first thing I would do before trying anything else.

Remove the expander ball from your F/L die and resize a couple of cases without it installed. Try seating a couple of dummy rounds with your 180 TTSX's and see what happens with the neck tension. Worst thing is you might ruin a couple of case necks. It also might work if you have a oversized expander ball.

I reload TSX's and TTSX's and I haven't experienced what you are experiencing.

[B W E]

Did you try this ?

This is the first thing I would do before trying anything else.

Remove the expander ball from your F/L die and resize a couple of cases without it installed. Try seating a couple of dummy rounds with your 180 TTSX's and see what happens with the neck tension. Worst thing is you might ruin a couple of case necks. It also might work if you have a oversized expander ball.

I reload TSX's and TTSX's and I haven't experienced what you are experiencing.

Ok I'll give it a try. Should I try it on any piece of brass or only one that's previously been resized with the expander ball without being fired?

[B W E]

And again, I have to ask.... WHY should I have to go through all this when every other .308 bullet loads perfectly fine?

[FLIGHT762]

Ok I'll give it a try. Should I try it on any piece of brass or only one that's previously been resized with the expander ball without being fired?

Either one. You pick it. Is all of the brass the same head stamp ? manufacturer?

And again, I have to ask.... WHY should I have to go through all this when every other .308 bullet loads perfectly fine?

Because it is a simple try and it might work ?

[B W E]

I've got about 250 federal once fired. Not fired from my rifle though. I'll go resize one without the ball and see what happens

[B W E]

Well sonofa*****! It worked!! I pulled out the decapping pin/expander and resized a case. Seated the bullet and it's nice and snug.

Im pretty excited now guys, I will likely stick with this bullet, albeit a 165 instead of the 180s I have.

I feel like an idiot for doubting you guys. Kinda like me arguing with my GPS lady. Thanks again for all your help!

[FLIGHT762]

You likely have brass that has just slightly thinner necks than other brands do.
Sometimes that's all it takes.

Glad it worked.

I believe you're better off using a 165 TTSX rather than the 180's. You'll be able to get higher velocities with the 165, which the TTSX needs.

I've learned to use slightly less bullet weight in Copper bullets than with traditional lead jacketed bullets. In my 270, I'm using 110 TTSX's loaded to 3200 FPS. In the 30 / 06, the 150 TTSX, in .300 Magnum 168 TTSX and in 7MM Magnum, 140 TTSX's.

There are a number of reloaders on this forum that have many years of reloading experience and give very good advice, on the other hand there are some with little experience and like to chime in when they don't know what they're talking about.

[B W E]

So I sat down to load up some TTSX rounds, and discovered two problems with removing the decapper / expander.

First, the mouths are not all uniform, and need to be reshaped. This can't happen without the expander.

Second, when I remove the expander, the ID of the next is now .291, which is .015" difference between the bullet. Wouldn't this be way too much neck tension causing a spike in pressure? I'm dealing with max loads, and this seems to me like it would be a problem.

[nothing4u]

What are you using to measure the inside diameter?

[FLIGHT762]

So I sat down to load up some TTSX rounds, and discovered two problems with removing the decapper / expander.

First, the mouths are not all uniform, and need to be reshaped. This can't happen without the expander.

Second, when I remove the expander, the ID of the next is now .291, which is .015" difference between the bullet. Wouldn't this be way too much neck tension causing a spike in pressure? I'm dealing with max loads, and this seems to me like it would be a problem.

If the case mouths are not uniform, you can run the cases first through the die with the expander ball in and then run them a second time through with out it.

The neck brass will stretch when seating the bullets. Unless you see excess bulging on the case necks or see that they're being over stretched in seating without using the expansed ball, they will be fine.

I don't understand you saying your going to load maximum loads with out even testing. You never load maximum listed loads without working up to them. You're asking for trouble.

The other thing you can do is do what Whiterabbit said in post #13. Sand down your expander ball as he described. I have done this to a couple of my dies. Don't take too much off, only .001" or so. That will also work.

[Wrangler John]

What you are experiencing is a common problem with certain component combinations. There are tools for compensating for bullet pull problems, one such is here:

http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=36223

This product incorporates a body bump die with interchangeable neck bushings to set neck tension. The bushing that provides an inside neck diameter of .002" to .003" smaller than the bullet is usually sufficient. This means the actual diameter of the bushing will be about .001" to .003" smaller than that to allow for brass spring back. The Forster die set comes with three bushings, .334, .332, .330 diameters, these will usually allow for proper neck tension depending on neck wall thickness, and are sold without an expander ball. The expander ball can be purchased separately. The die is also sold without bushings so the handloader can measure the O.D. of a loaded cartridge and order bushings necessary to produce the required bullet pull. The advantage to a bushing die is that one die can accommodate various neck thicknesses of brass and diameters of bullets by switching bushings.

Redding also sells neck and full length bushing size dies here:

http://www.redding-reloading.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118%3Atype-s-bushing-dies

Redding also offers free floating carbide sizing buttons for these dies, that reduce the possibility of disturbing axial alignment of the neck.

I just went through a similar problem with .308 Winchester, and one of Redding's die sets solved the problem nicely.

The cheaper alternative is to try other lead free bullets such as Hornady's GMX: http://www.hornady.com/store/GMX or offerings from Nosler: http://www.nosler.com/e-tip/ For non-lead free areas it's really difficult to beat Nosler's Partition: http://www.nosler.com/partition/ or the new http://www.nosler.com/accubond-long-range/

Good hunting, may you take a trophy moose.

[FLIGHT762]

This thread got my curiosity up, so I decided to load up some TTSX 30/06 dummy rounds without using a neck expander. I took a RCBS F/L 30/06 die and removed the expander / decapping spindle. I F/L resized three once fired cases. Winchester, Remington and Federal. I measured the I/D of the neck of the three resized cases without an expander.

Winchester: .300", Federal: .295" and Remington: .299".

I used 3 Barnes .30 cal. 150 grain TTSX. The bullets measure 1.295" in length (a Hornady 165 SST measured 1.275"). I seated the bullets to a length of 3.310". This length pushed the shank of the bullet the full length of the case neck to about .390". All three bullets seated firmly into the cases. The case necks with the seated bullets were not deformed, distorted or misshapen. The O/D of the case necks with the bullets seated were:

Winchester: .332", Federal: .337" and Remington: .332". All of these diameters are normal for the brass used.

I then took the three cases and pulled the bullets using a kinetic puller. The bullets pulled with 3-6 medium whacks, not overly difficult. While the neck expander ball would have evened out the I / D of the three different cases, all three of my different mfg. cases loaded the TTSX's fine without the expander ball.

I would load up your TTSX's without the expander ball with a below maximum powder charge and test them. I think they will be fine.

[B W E]

Thanks for all your time on this Flight. I have to admit I've been quite a whacko about this....I've spent countless hours reading up on all sorts of stuff I didn't know.

Here's where I'm at now.... I've learned that typically FC brass is softer than most others. This could cause the neck to not spring back as much as it could if it was a harder brass. From what I understand, this is because Federal does not draw the brass as much when forming it, making it less work hardened. So.... I'm trying different brass. I loaded up a winchester case the way I always have, with the expander, and everything was perfect.

I'm headed to the garage now to try out some PMC brass. If everything goes well, then I'll try another case, and tip I've got a selection of a few that I know Im good with.

What powder are you using? I've always used 4064 for my .30-06, but picked up 2# of H4350 as its temperature insensitive (likely 30-50 degrees up there but I only have hot summer months here for ladder testing) and should give me better velocity. I am starting to believe that I am overthinking this, and that any premium bullet that leaves the muzzle at 2700FPS and hits the right spot inside 300 yards is going to leave the animal just as dead as any other pullet / powder combo.