Lead Exposure...

[opos]

I'm the "perfect storm" as far as lung issues..have only one functioning lung (paralyzed diaphragm on one side)...COPD from years of smoking even though I quit some 30 years ago..and asthma...see the Pulmonary doc every 3 months..not on oxygen.

If I go to an indoor range (like is foolishly did about 2 weeks ago) where the sooty air is just hanging there (this particular range in the San Diego area is noted for being lousy for filtration and air exchange)...I'm going to suffer...I wear a mask when shooting but still get the sooty air. I think I've finally learned my lesson...stay the hell out of indoor ranges and especially the one I mention...some are better than others but I think I just need to admit I don't belong there.

Pulmonary doc is aware I shoot...she is also a shooter...said the main issue with me is not lead (though it's there) but the primer and lube residue. I often shoot commercial cast lead with the "blue crayon" lube which is dirty. I have my lead levels checked and not an issue...Pulmonary doc does not want me to cast..period!...her words not mine. I use a tumbler with walnut shells but if I have particularly dirty brass I'll normally give it a quick wash with a citrus bath, dry it and then decap first and then tumble..I don't pick range brass..try and shoot new brass and reload my own cartridges..I have a brass catcher for the semi's...anal you ask? I guess. I keep some pieces of used dryer sheets in the shells, use a dust mask and gloves when handling brass and tumbler components...I also wipe down the tumbler when done using it.

I don't wear gloves when reloading...got enough issues with touch without adding gloves to the mix.

I used to cast..I used to shoot indoors all the time with no issues...but no more.

[faris1984]

I do the fishing weight with my teeth...Now going to be more careful not to smoke when shooting or put my hand in my mouth.I spend my childhood with air rife and lead pellet always on my pockets and don't remember if I washed my hand...I don't think so..

[thx1138x1]

guys, if you melt lead, you will get some vapors, but it's not alot. i mean, years ago, many folks would melt lead on the kitchen stove, during the winter, with the house all buttoned up from the cold. no one died from lead poisoning, but there were most certainly people with elevated levels. in general, it's a good thing to avoid. you want your lead levels to be under 10.

fortunately, we do know that lead exposure is on the decline.

Not trying to argue,I have been casting for 33 years and for the first time in 32 years had my levels check and were at the minimums.Don't shoot indoors and not as much as I used to but I think just washing your hands and shooting outdoors helps.I cast at 750,what temp does lead vaporize?EDIT Commercial lube is made of?My lube is bees wax and castor oil,kind of organic.Please please send me all your lead for proper disposal.

[Jimi Jah]

Have good ventalation, wash your hands with D-lead soap and don't chew on bullets.

Or, switch to copper lead free bullets.

[alantani]

if you work with the stuff alot, it is good to go check your lead levels. you're all smart guys. if your level comes back at 15, 22 or 25, then you know that the stuff is getting into your bloodstream. then you can sit down and look at all the different points of contact that you have.

i pour lead to make fishing weights. i've got 25 pounds of the stuff in a pot all at once and i'm making 12 to 15 pound downrigger weights, 2.5 pound salmon weights, and 4 to 16 ounce torpedo weights for deep drop fishing. i work outside with a big fan to keep the air moving off in a certain direction so that i don't inhale the fumes from the pot. granted, most of it is once a year, at the beginning of the fishing season, but it usually takes up several days. with some reasonable precautions, you can do all of this safely.

[alantani]

just took a look. the melting temperature of lead is 621 degrees farenheit and the boiling temperature is 3180 degrees farenheit. the lee pots are not going to get you anywhere near the boiling point. even at 1000 degrees farenheit, the vapor pressure is only 1.77mmHg, which is very low.

but here is where my perfect world ends. the lead i get is not just pure lead. it's old fish weights that are recast. when you heat it up, it smokes like crazy at first and there's alot of slag that i have to skim off the top of my iron kettle. i don't know how much lead is in that smoke, but i'm not going to inhale it to find out. now for you guys. if you are buying pure lead ingots, it's going to be a nice clean operation. if you are recycling scrap, it's gonna be messy.

[alantani]

you know what would be interesting? have you guys all get your lead levels checked, then interview all of you to look for risk factors. a formal study would have be designed in such a way to control variables, but a preliminary survey could simply identify those of you with elevated levels, then simply check off different events that could lead to exposure. i'd have to do a literature search to see what has been done already and there would be no way to eliminate observer bias or recall bias, but you could still identify trends.

likely, it would only tell us what we already know.

[Germz]

so I shouldn't be making snow angels in all the lead scrap I have???




one time I got a melt so hot it was glowing super bright red..still wasn't vaporizing. I'm not worried.

[Altahick]

i been bitin lead splitshot fishing weights with my teeth since i was 5. im probably going to die soon

[357shooter]

that's a good question. how long ago was this level obtained? what kind of routine did you have? we know that guys at ranges can get elevated levels, but with good hand washing and some reasonable precautions, you can avoid these problems. if it were not possible to avoid significant exposures, then no one would ever be able to work at a range.

think about it. if working at a range meant that you could not avoid an elevated lead level, then you could not work at a range. it's that simple. but with some resonable precautions, including good handwashing and lead level checks, you should be able to work safely at a range. checking levels is the key.

so what kind of routine did you have? the lead clearly went from the cartridge to your bloodstream. it does not happen to everyone, but it does happen. if there is something specific that you did that resulted in an elevated level, tell us. do you pour your own bullets? process alot of brass? work at a range? maybe a contractor that strips alot of paint in old buildings?

Well it's been going on for about two years, I was shooting in doors 2-3 times a week not any more, and the level was down to 11 last test.

[HighLander51]

you know what would be interesting? have you guys all get your lead levels checked, then interview all of you to look for risk factors. a formal study would have be designed in such a way to control variables, but a preliminary survey could simply identify those of you with elevated levels, then simply check off different events that could lead to exposure. i'd have to do a literature search to see what has been done already and there would be no way to eliminate observer bias or recall bias, but you could still identify trends.

likely, it would only tell us what we already know.

Ok, alantani, I would be glad to work with you on this project. I think most competitive shooters have no clue as to their lead levels. Like I said earlier, I shoot 6 matches a month, running moly coated lead thru a SS aftermarket barrel in a G17, that's typically about 225 rounds per match. I also tend to RO (Range Officer) for most of the time for most of the squad, so I breath in more lead than competitive shooters who don't RO. This is all outside, but if you look at these videos, you can see lots of lead moly smoke. Most likely my next level of protection is a particle mask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uvIfxnwdkM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFmWZ4liRfc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJh8gwg3qps

[alantani]

one of the things that irks the hell out of me is bad science. you see it everywhere, from medicine to fish counts to global warming. studies are being done by people that have no idea how to conduct a study, control variables, eliminate sources of bias and then finally do the math to establish for sure what the "confidence limits" for their studies are. i can tell you right now, that none of the data we could collect could be used to come to any types of conclusions at all. it would simply be a "survey" of guys here that shoot (selection bias) asking a set of questions about shooting habits (observer bias) to guys that volunteer (recall bias) and then comparing those "results" to ramdom lead levels. since we can't possiby afford to pay for weekly lead levels in a population of one, two or three thousand shooters, we have no hope of getting a large enough sample size to reach a meaning level of statistical significance.

the only easy part would be the control group, the general population, which we could assumed to have a lead level less than ten.

but enough of why this would not work. if i were going to put together a "survey," it would included demographics such as age, weight, gender, and race. the variables that we would look at would be days of shooting per month, hours per day, rounds per hour, calibers of each round, type of range, type of weapon. once we get the questionaire set up, these guys need only go to their doc and request a lead level. if their doc agrees, we will have our "data!" i think a lead level every 6 months is reasonable for an active shooter. if the level is greater than 10, then it should be reasonable to repeat that level every ever two months until there are two consecutive levels less than 10.

you can see already that an accurate and detailed shooting history is critical. you should literally have to account for every single cartridge.

[Ferrum]

i work at the poison control center at SFGH, been here 32 years. here's what i can tell you. working indoors every day at a range with poor ventilation can be a problem. casting lead fishing weights or bullets and inhaling the fumes from molten lead can be a problem. swallowing plain lead (non-jacketed bullets or fishing weights) or getting shot and retaining bullets can be a problem. nothing else is.

your average reloader will never have a problem. going to the range once or twice a week for a few hours a day will never be a problem. shooting missouri bullets means having to just wash your hands before going into the house. your average fisherman using lead fishing weights will have a much higher lead exposure and none of these guys have any trouble at all. reload and shoot your missouri bullets with confidence, wash your hands after each session, and get a lead level with your yearly physical.

just a little advise from your friendly neighborhood pharmacist.......

Agree with most of this...

Really? The lead bullet exiting the muzzle shears off lead particles, which you breath in. Setting up steel, which has lead splash on it, is a problem, lead particles can be very fine,and you breath them in during handling. Breathing in lead styphanate from the primer is a problem. Handling lead weights does not cause lead in your blood, ingesting and breathing lead does. Punching primers out causes lead dust, which you can breath in. Casting fumes do not cause high lead levels unless your nose is in the lead pot. You may be a pharmacist, but you don't know jack about lead levels for shooters. To all you guys shooting Missouri bullets, which I have shot tens of thousands, get your lead blood level checked and report back.

This statement I have a disagreement with. People do not take into consideration how heavy lead is, even in particulate size. When lead particles exit the muzzle, they are doing the same thing as your bullet... falling! This is why even in projects involving lead remediation, the use of negative air or pressurized air is discouraged. If you walk into a room or area that you know is lead contaminated I can promise you that the lead is on the ground or on horizontal surfaces on it's way to the ground. Lead isn't asbestos or any other nuisance dust, it's heavy and will not suspend in the air for any serious amount of time.

The caveat to this is if you were shooting all day with the breeze in your face. I could see a potential situation for blow back...

just took a look. the melting temperature of lead is 621 degrees farenheit and the boiling temperature is 3180 degrees farenheit. the lee pots are not going to get you anywhere near the boiling point. even at 1000 degrees farenheit, the vapor pressure is only 1.77mmHg, which is very low.

but here is where my perfect world ends. the lead i get is not just pure lead. it's old fish weights that are recast. when you heat it up, it smokes like crazy at first and there's alot of slag that i have to skim off the top of my iron kettle. i don't know how much lead is in that smoke, but i'm not going to inhale it to find out. now for you guys. if you are buying pure lead ingots, it's going to be a nice clean operation. if you are recycling scrap, it's gonna be messy.

Say for example that the melt is at 1000* (yes, excess of any reasonable casting temperature). That translates to about 538*C or 811*K. The vapor pressure of lead at that temperature is on the order of 10^-7 atmospheres. Boiling would be a vapor pressure of 1 atmosphere. With a vapor pressure that low, the amount of lead vapor coming off the melt is extremely small and what does come off is fairly well constrained to the area near the surface of the melt.

Most run their pots closer to 700* so casting really isn't a huge issue.

you know what would be interesting? have you guys all get your lead levels checked, then interview all of you to look for risk factors. a formal study would have be designed in such a way to control variables, but a preliminary survey could simply identify those of you with elevated levels, then simply check off different events that could lead to exposure. i'd have to do a literature search to see what has been done already and there would be no way to eliminate observer bias or recall bias, but you could still identify trends.

likely, it would only tell us what we already know.

In addition to running BLL tests, I always order ZPP test. This can provide information in regards to limited high exposures and chronic exposures. The cost is negligible when ran in conjunction with each other. This test essentially negates one time high exposures from a real problem.

Ok, alantani, I would be glad to work with you on this project. I think most competitive shooters have no clue as to their lead levels. Like I said earlier, I shoot 6 matches a month, running moly coated lead thru a SS aftermarket barrel in a G17, that's typically about 225 rounds per match. I also tend to RO (Range Officer) for most of the time for most of the squad, so I breath in more lead than competitive shooters who don't RO. This is all outside, but if you look at these videos, you can see lots of lead moly smoke. Most likely my next level of protection is a particle mask.

Remember Lead is HEAVY. I'd stay up wind (if possible) and remember that lead particles are going to drop.

I actually was involved with the Army Corp of Engineers on a project some time ago. The thought was that the HEPA filtration systems should be down draft and down range. They found that most ranges put filtration units behind the firing line, in order to prevent the units from being shot up.

Doing some dispersion modeling, the ACOE's contention was that this was bad practice given lead particle dispersion. Having HEPA units mounted in the air allowed lead to suspend in air longer than it would naturally and also prompted lead to draw back towards the firing line instead of away from the shooter.


My opinion... much ado about nothing.

Alantani really had the best advice... Hygiene!

[HighLander51]

My opinion... much ado about nothing.

Alantani really had the best advice... Hygiene!

SO? why is my lead level up to 22? My only exposure is during competition... and I know that my buddies who shoot non toxic primers and full metal jacket bullets, shooting just as often as I do, and use the same reloading methods as me, but their lead is below 6. It has to be the lead cloud

[Ferrum]

SO? why is my lead level up to 22? My only exposure is during competition... and I know that my buddies who shoot non toxic primers and full metal jacket bullets, shooting just as often as I do, and use the same reloading methods as me, but their lead is below 6. It has to be the lead cloud

Possibly... I wouldn't discount it. I wouldn't necessarily say that all of this applies to persons with your particular level of rounds per year and range time.

But, I will stand by the fact being heavy metal dispersion isn't like that of house hold dust or other similar materials. Next time your waiting to shoot, or watching the line, look at one of the other shooters and see if any of the blast is blowing back at them... You may see something interesting? I can't say that I have really thought about it.

There is a pretty interesting read from the CDC on lead in air. Their findings indicated that 70% of lead falls out of air at rate of .4 Centimeters per second. With that being said, a gun firing at 5' in height, 70% of the lead would be on the ground in approximately 5 minutes and out of the breathing zone in less than 1 minute. So yes there is some exposure, just goes back to how much... I also can't remember where I read it (I'll call it FUD because I can't remember the source) but, I remember reading something that said on average a properly sized lead bullet looses 1.8% of its weight by exit of the muzzle. So there would be even more math for you to run.

The next scary question is are you sure your lead exposure is from shooting? I know it's out there, but have to throw out the possibility.

I have all of the equipment for air monitoring for lead. You may have inspired me to take it with me to the range next weekend. Then again... do I want to know?