Silvertips, is my reasoning flawed?

[ar15barrels]

Don't even bother trying to explain it, physics and other scientific laws/facts do not exist in some of these folks worlds.

<my cousin vinny>
do the laws of physics not apply in your kitchen?
do gritts cook faster on your stove?
</my cousin vinney>

[sloguy]

Maybe not. Maybe my data is flawed. I'll bring the billygoat and you bring the birdshot. How's that.

ok, lets do it.

[Meplat]

You are not a troll. Trolls have a clear agenda, you're just plain confused.

Thank you

[Moonclip]

Why oh why do I still look at this thread? If I can document(don't know if I can still contact him) that the guy I know who almost lost his leg and almost died from birdshot from a typical home defense distance will one of the naysayers give me say $1000?

Never said birdshot was ideal for most or any defensive purposes but to say it is not deadly at close/very close range is a bit farfetched. FWIW the Massad Ayoob book stressfire 2 dealing with combat shotgun use mentioned police using very fine birdshot loads for some specialized uses in raids in certain areas.

[bernieb90]

Silvertips offer a shallower penetration though humans and animals, reason being they have soft cores and expand very quickly. They penetrate the same as any other bullet through building materials.

If you are concerned about shooting through an assailant and then through the wall, don't be. An expanded hollow point exiting a person has maybe 10-20% of its energy remaining and is unlikely to do anything to anyone, especially if it has to make it through a wall first.

The problem is that often Silvertips will clog up with clothing and not expand at all thus acting like an FMJ. In these cases overpenetration can be significant issue.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/40sw/win40-155sthp-g27.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/45acp/win45-185st-g30.htm

Any well designed modern HP (Ranger-T, Gold Dot, etc.) will be far more consistant and effective than the Sillvertip. Modern premium loads are also more likeley to expand and stay in a subject, thus reducing potential for collateral damage.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/40sw/win40-180rsxt-g27.htm

[bernieb90]

Birdshot is called birdshot for a reason.

Gelatin test #8 shot

http://www.tacticalworks.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/bird_8_heavy_dove/gelatin_shot_8.html

Gelatin Test #5 Tungsten (note: actual corrected penetration will be shallower)

http://www.tacticalworks.ca/content_sub/gelatin_testing/bird_5_kent/gelatin_birdshot_kent_5.html

Geatin test 00 Buckshot (there is a reason it is called that)

http://www.tacticalworks.ca/content_sub/gelatin_testing/buck_00_rem_tac/gelatin_buckshot_00_rem_tac.html

[Moonclip]

I wonder how #2 or #4 or BB does? I wonder if steel shot penetrates less?

There is some wierd loads out there too that might be neat to test, there was birdshot with a square profile and IIRC the British in Malaysia emergency used a shotgun load which had mixed pellet sizes in the same shell.

[Meplat]

Birdshot is called birdshot for a reason.

Gelatin test #8 shot

http://www.tacticalworks.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/bird_8_heavy_dove/gelatin_shot_8.html

A Remington "Heavy Dove Load" that is only moving at 623 FPS three yards from the muzzel? I don't think I'll beleave anything else on that site either.

[bernieb90]

A Remington "Heavy Dove Load" that is only moving at 623 FPS three yards from the muzzel? I don't think I'll beleave anything else on that site either.

Please look very very carefully at the page again. That is the velocity of the calibration BB not the shot. Gelatin needs to be calibrated with a BB to ensure it is of the correct cobsistancy before use. The guy did a great job of making sure everything is well documented.

[sloguy]

bernie is correct, thats the bb calibration. a bb moving x speed will go y deep in z density gelatin. it just proves how dense the gelatin is when the tests were done. gelatin that sits out of the cooler too long gives inaccurate results.

moonclip, steel shot deforms less. less deformation means deeper wounds. steel deforms less coming out of the gun, as well as going thru its target.

edit: moonclip, two sizes of shot , if im not mistaken is called duplex loading. you must put the larger shot in front to make consistant patterns. if the heavier shot is in the rear it will push thru the lighter shot mid air and distort the pattern. duplex loads are of little practical use.

look for a book series called "the modern shotgun" i think the authors name was burrard. 3 volume set in 2 books. book 1 is the best, covering 'the cartridge' and 'the gun' book 2 is volume 3 and covers ' the cartridge and the gun' (meaning it covers how the two interact). the first twl volumes cover all the history of manufacture technique of each part of everything. talks about shot towers and ramps used to sort shot. example, they used to use a ramp with a little jump at the end to sort shot. the round shot would roll and pick up speed and clear the gap. shot that was flawed would not roll fast enough and fell into the gap and was sent back to the furnace as scrap.

[Moonclip]

bernie is correct, thats the bb calibration. a bb moving x speed will go y deep in z density gelatin. it just proves how dense the gelatin is when the tests were done. gelatin that sits out of the cooler too long gives inaccurate results.

moonclip, steel shot deforms less. less deformation means deeper wounds. steel deforms less coming out of the gun, as well as going thru its target.

Doesn't steel lose velocity quicker though? Probably only a concern at long range though.

[sloguy]

Doesn't steel lose velocity quicker though? Probably only a concern at long range though.

why would you use a shotgun at long range?

inside 40 yards i doubt steel loses velocity enough to matter(compared to lead shot of equal size)

i dont have that data tho. i could be wrong, but i think im right.

[Moonclip]

I meant long range for a shotgun, 40-50 yards, probably more of a concern for hunting which these shells are designed for mainly. I wonder if steel buckshot sizes ever existed? I could have sworn the military experimented with them.

[bernieb90]

Waterfowl nunters normally move up a shot size when going from lead shot to steel to make up for the reduced density of steel shot. This is still not aperfect solution since the pellet qty drops as well. Tungsten and busmuth based non-toxic shot is considered to be an acceptable solution to the problem although the cost of these shells is often quite high. Tungsten based buckshot would be ideal as it would offer the best energy retention and penetration of any commonly available shot material.

[sloguy]

Waterfowl nunters normally move up a shot size when going from lead shot to steel to make up for the reduced density of steel shot. This is still not aperfect solution since the pellet qty drops as well. Tungsten and busmuth based non-toxic shot is considered to be an acceptable solution to the problem although the cost of these shells is often quite high. Tungsten based buckshot would be ideal as it would offer the best energy retention and penetration of any commonly available shot material.

but, ive heard of steel buckshot damaging some barrels. something about how soft shot will smoosh a bit when it gets wedged side by side leaving the barrel but steel doesnt give like lead and it can bulge a barrel, specially near the choke. not verified info tho.

by the way, kinda shameless how we thread jacked the poor original poster. i apologize for that.....