Laws requiring reload disclosure

[CSACANNONEER]

The ammo was shipped in Winchester boxes that clearly say "Winchester Match 308win 168 grain Matchking HPBT". The headstamps say "Winchester 308 win". The guys at the range (including the owner) said it looked like the brass was reloaded. There is nothing on the box, receipt, or website mentioning reloaded or remanufactured. So yes, they put their own reloads into Winchester factory boxes. I am aware that frequently manufacturers will call all .308 ammo "308win" and .223 ammo ".223 Remington". This goes beyond that.



Please show me where this is stated. I am unable to find it. If it's my own fault, of course I'd like to know.

CSACANNONEER, since I seem to be "going off on them without knowing what [I'm] talking about," let me clarify. I started this post to get more information before deciding whether to get a refund (if it's an isolated incident) or pursue legal class action.
Help me to understand:
FACTORY NEW only means that the manufacturer has a 06 or 07 Federal Firearms License and that the brass is new? What term is used to describe ammunition that is actually manufactured/assembled by "The Winchester company brand used today under license by two subsidiaries of the Herstal Group, Fabrique Nationale (FN) of Belgium and the Browning Arms Company of Morgan, Utah." I'm not a lawyer, but I believe if they're selling ammo that is not made by Winchester, and passing it off as being made by Winchester, they are violating copyright and/or trademark laws.

If LAXammo has "gone direct" with those five firearms companies, I would think LAXammo is buying direct from them, not manufacturing ammo under their names. I think those companies would want to know about this!

I'm not out of line being very angry about being duped into using crappy reloads that could damage my rifle, my hand, or my face in an explosive detonation, because it was not subjected to quality control standards. My own reloads were giving me tighter groups than this garbage! I also object to unethical business practices.

First, I didn't say that you were going off without knowing what you're talking about. I merely warned not to do so if and when you initially talk to them about this.

Second, it sure sounds like you just got a bad factory load that came from the Winchester factory. It happens. In fact, the only real problems I've ever had with ammo has been with high end Eley .22lr and some older higher end Winchester 9mm.

Third, "they guy at the range" mat or may not be talking through his ...... Why not call LAX and politely ask a few questions without accusing them of anything?

Fourth, .308 is now and always has been ".308 Winchester". That is it's proper designation. The cartridge was designed, developed and named by Winchester. So, there is nothing wrong with any manufacturer marketing their own ammo as ".308 Winchester". In fact, it is the proper designation for that cartridge when it is loaded to the proper specs.

Finally, post some pictures of the loaded ammo and/or take it to a few places with competent reloaders present and ask them. Or, even take a box to LAX and, without telling them anything, get their professional opinion as to if it was reloaded or not.

[Exodus343]

Could be your gun....

[Tanner68]

So far OP from what you have told us, it sounds like you bought factory ammo. Nothing you have mentioned indicates reloads, rather a bad batch of factory ammo.

Can't imagine LAX carefully sorting cases and repacking reloaded ammo into factory boxes. Where would they get brand new factory boxes? It would be more than a stretch, and not worth the effort.

Do you have any unfired rounds left?

[Spyder]

...I've never experienced such inconsistency in ammunition before. fire 2 on target, 3rd one 5ft low and stovepipe, over and over.

Sounds pretty consistent to me!

[mikeyr]

or pursue legal class action.

Well I stopped reading right there !!!

[Noldor]

Sounds like a refund is in order

So far OP from what you have told us, it sounds like you bought factory ammo. Nothing you have mentioned indicates reloads, rather a bad batch of factory ammo.

Can't imagine LAX carefully sorting cases and repacking reloaded ammo into factory boxes. Where would they get brand new factory boxes? It would be more than a stretch, and not worth the effort.

Do you have any unfired rounds left?

Yes, 8 boxes. Put like that, it does sound like it wouldn't be worth the trouble they would generate.

Learn how to load your own and never buy factory or someone else's reloads again. It's like an EASY button!

I'm doing exactly that, as fast as I can.

Why not call LAX and politely ask a few questions without accusing them of anything?

First thing tomorrow.

that is a big WHATEVER.

True, except that one of them was the range owner.

Is your gun okay with other ammo? A friend of mine got a 308 barrel with a tight throat that kicked out brass with severe overpressure signs on several types of ammo while a couple other guns ate them fine. Barrel returned, problem solved. (this was a brownells LR-308 barrel)

It's a Dpms LR-.308 and it has no problems with PMC, "regular/non-match" Winchester 7.62x51 (Q3130), Magtech, or CBC .308. I'll call Dpms and ask if they've had problems with a tight throat on my model.

Could be your gun....

That was what I thought at first, except it was fine with "regular/non-match" Winchester 7.62x51 (Q3130), and my own reloads on the same day.

it sure sounds like you just got a bad factory load that came from the Winchester factory. It happens. In fact, the only real problems I've ever had with ammo has been with high end Eley .22lr and some older higher end Winchester 9mm.

Winchester has been notorious for quality issues.

How the mighty have fallen. My dad recommended Winchester based on his experience reloading their brass... but that was in the 70s. Is Norma still high end/good quality?

I would stick with Black Hills, Hornady, Buffalo Bore, Federal, and other "higher" end brands/mfg.

Anyone care to name their favorite for .308 & 5.56x45mm NATO? I'm swearing off Winchester, unless their .45ACP is still good.

THANK YOU EVERYONE for your input. The ammo made for a disappointing experience, but I'll get over it after I get a refund.

[Exodus343]

Black hills or federal gold medal match are the top choice for match ammo

Southwest Ammo also

5.56 just shoot lake city lol

[knucklehead0202]

Sounds pretty consistent to me!

lol I kinda walked into that one didn't I? seriously though, the professional thing to do in this instance would firstly be to contact them before even asking us and certainly before mentioning their name on a forum, especially when they're a local vendor that many here have dealt with. asking advice is one thing but smearing somebody without having all the facts is a shi**y thing to do by any standard. if you're unsatisfied with the product, the logical first step would be to take it up with the supplier/manufacturer. start from the beginning, not the middle or the end....

[Noldor]

seriously though, the professional thing to do in this instance would firstly be to contact them before even asking us and certainly before mentioning their name on a forum, especially when they're a local vendor that many here have dealt with. asking advice is one thing but smearing somebody without having all the facts is a shi**y thing to do by any standard. if you're unsatisfied with the product, the logical first step would be to take it up with the supplier/manufacturer. start from the beginning, not the middle or the end....

I had to be sure which way it was. If someone has shady business practices, they're going to get smeared and deserve it. Better sooner than later. BUT, since this appears to be a case of poor manufacturing quality control (by Winchester) or a tight chamber, I'll ask the admin to remove this post before too many more people read it.

[bsumoba]

Black hills or federal gold medal match are the top choice for match ammo

Southwest Ammo also

5.56 just shoot lake city lol

In reality, every manufacture will run into some amount of quality issues. Thats why bullet manufactures have factory 2nds, there are factory seconds of ammunition, etc.

I have heard of both Winchester and even Hornady having ammo that was loaded a little hot. When you make hundreds of thousands of ammo, you're bound to have some fallout. Thats the nature of manufacturing. Now, if you are doing small lots with VERY strict quality control, then yes, you can expect consistency, but you'll be paying A LOT.

Hence, why people like myself reload. Not to mention you can tune your loads to your specific rifle as well as save money (in essence, you're manufacturing "match" grade ammo at component cost).

[Whiterabbit]

Is there not a LAW requiring them to disclose the fact that the ammo they're selling is reloaded?

Slow down there, turbo.

But if you insist on going in this direction, here:

http://www.robbonta.com/contact/

You can suggest one be written.

[at_liberty]

<> I'll get over it after I get a refund.

A refund on what basis? I know ammo as not returnable.

[thenodnarb]

LAX ammo has blown up more than their share of guns. I don't buy their stuff, and I don't buy reloads period because of them.

[gotsig]

I bought some ammo from LAXammo a few months ago. It was stated to be Winchester Match grade .308 ammo, and arrived in the factory boxes. While firing at the range I noticed a number of feeding problems. Then a very serious problem developed. The casing broke off in the chamber!

After I found out what it was, I looked over the casings and I saw the textbook signs of loads that are too hot (flattened primers, bands around the casing near the head). I didn't think to check them before that since I had no idea that it was NOT factory ammo.

Apparently everyone knew that they sell reloaded ammo but me.

Is there not a LAW requiring them to disclose the fact that the ammo they're selling is reloaded?

That sounds like excessive headspace. I would start there.