.40 S&W Expanding, Seating, and Taper Crimp Problems

[JagerDog]

I've had issues in 45 with thin brass (remington).

Straight pistol dies only size the outside, hence thin brass = large I.D.

[JagerDog]

You need too lower the sizing die.

???...........

[J-cat]

I have over 500 brand new Winchester 40 S&W cases. A random sampling of 20 of them shows an inside diameter of between .388-.391. There is no way that a bullet that measures .395 will not be held tightly enough if the cases are resized that size.

Those cases will not fit into my Lee sizing die without use of the press so the die is even smaller than that size. Since it's highly unlikely that the sizing die is too large, Unless he's using a 45 cal die, then the only possible explanation is that the case mouth was enlarged too much after it was resized.

The only other explanation is that he mixed up his unsized cases with his sized cases and the case was never resized to begin with.

I just measured 5 random Winchester cases from my collection of 25k and they measure .396"-.398" on the ID.

[Davisje011]

Or, you could say "screw it" and claim that you have invented .39S&W

[Yerman]

Thanks for the responses guys.

For the expander die, I screwed it down until it touched the case. I then gave it 1/16 turns until the bullet just barely got itself into the case. Just the end of the bullet and I'm talking barely holding on. If I did 1/16th back out, the bullet would not hold in the case. At this point, I must use my press to seat the bullet because the neck it tight enough to need the pressure of the press to get the bullet into the case.

After I seat the bullet, I give it a slight crimp just to get rid the small flare created by the expanding die. Maybe even a little more.

I take the newly created round and push on the bullet with my finger and it pushes into the case.

This does not happen with Berry's bullets going through the same procedure, only the Extremes Bullets.

I don't understand why the neck is tight enough to need the press to seat the bullet but after seating, the bullet is loose enough to push into the case with my finger?

***I don't own .45 dies and I am 100% sure I am using 40S&W/10mm dies.

***There is no way I am mixing up sized and unsized brass. It' an LNL Progressive press and my sizing die is on the first stage. The cases do not get to the expander and seating dies unless it first runs through the sizer.

[BLR81]

What happens when you just seat the bullet and don't crimp? Can you push the bullet in with you finger then?

Your going to have to do something to eliminate steps so that you can isolate where your problem is coming from. I'd go so far as to eliminate the belling station and see what happens when you just seat into a sized case. If it's as loose as you say it is, there should be no problem getting the bullet into a sized case since the bullets are undersized anyways.

[Yerman]

Sounds like a plan. I'll give that a shot and report back this evening.

I called Extreme Bullets and I'm waiting to hear from them. From the sound of it, he was surprised at the bullet diameters I gave him and asked for the lot number on the outside of the box. He said he would call me back after he researched the samples of the lot they keep on hand.

My thought is that because the bullets are undersized, although larger than a sized case, they are not wide enough to put sufficient pressure on the walls of the bullet. If the bullet was to spec, it would take more pressure to insert into the case thus creating more pressure around the bullet and holding it in better. I am pretty sure they are undersized and causing the problem. Perhaps not enough time in the plating bath?

[BLR81]

Your bullets are only .001" below SAAMI spec. Your die sizes the outside of the case without an expander ball like in bottle nosed cases. The brass on the case varies more than .001 from case to case. Some brass probably varies .003-005" in thickness from one manufacturer to the next.

If .001" in thickness of the bullet were that critical, the case manufacturers would all have to make the same thickness of brass cases to maintain proper seating pressure. With various thickness of brass, once the outside is sized , the thicker brass would leave a tighter fit on the inside of the case.

I just don't believe that .001" is that critical, and that that level of tolerance is not attainable with so many different manufacturers of Bullet, cases, and dies. I think you need to measure the cases before sizing, after sizing and after seating to really know where your at.

[bigchinner]

When I first started reloading years ago. i actually ran the sizing die and expanding dies on brass without putting powder and manually checked where the bullethead was sitting. If the case was flared too much or cases were bulging, etc. After a few test runs of the reloader, then I added powder and did complete steps. Shouldn't be sizing die; more of expanding the case mouth problem. Check pamphlet that came with dies. sorry, my speer manual is tucked away somewhere. good luck.
A OAL gauge also helps after making some rounds. Safety, safety and then safety.

[Yerman]

Well...you guys were right. It's the brass.

I am only having problems with brass that reads R.P 40 S&W (Remington Brass?)

Winchester and Remington are working fine.

I guess it only takes one time to learn how important it is to separate your brass by brand.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[bigchinner]

I've had tons of RP brass used for 9mm and 40. I've never had that problem. I didn't read every post, but is that brass new or range pick up stuff? It is possible it's been sized numerous times and thinned out a little and doesn't size the way it should. I usually count how many times i've reloaded my brass.

[JagerDog]

I've had issues in 45 with thin brass (remington).

Straight pistol dies only size the outside, hence thin brass = large I.D.

Well...you guys were right. It's the brass.

I am only having problems with brass that reads R.P 40 S&W (Remington Brass?)

Winchester and Remington are working fine.

I guess it only takes one time to learn how important it is to separate your brass by brand.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[JagerDog]

I've had tons of RP brass used for 9mm and 40. I've never had that problem. I didn't read every post, but is that brass new or range pick up stuff? It is possible it's been sized numerous times and thinned out a little and doesn't size the way it should. I usually count how many times i've reloaded my brass.

Pretty much it would have to stretch to do that. Material has to go somewhere.

Simply cost cutting my the mfg by using less (thinner wall) brass. I'm sure some accountant calc'd they could amortize the costs of retooling over x-million rounds and an engineer calc'd that thinner brass would be strong enough on new factory loads. The reloader with standard tooling is not a concern.

In bulk they roll size straight pistol brass so it's just machine/spec adjustment.

[ar15barrels]

Thanks for the responses guys.

For the expander die, I screwed it down until it touched the case. I then gave it 1/16 turns until the bullet just barely got itself into the case. Just the end of the bullet and I'm talking barely holding on. If I did 1/16th back out, the bullet would not hold in the case. At this point, I must use my press to seat the bullet because the neck it tight enough to need the pressure of the press to get the bullet into the case.

After I seat the bullet, I give it a slight crimp just to get rid the small flare created by the expanding die. Maybe even a little more.

I take the newly created round and push on the bullet with my finger and it pushes into the case.

This does not happen with Berry's bullets going through the same procedure, only the Extremes Bullets.

I don't understand why the neck is tight enough to need the press to seat the bullet but after seating, the bullet is loose enough to push into the case with my finger? .

Measure the diameter of your expander.
Polish it to reduce the diameter 0.001" to 0.002".

[ar15barrels]

Measure the diameter of your expander.
Polish it to reduce the diameter 0.001" to 0.002".

Brass wall thickness is not the issue.
The issue is brass hardness and expander diameter.
Harder brass will stretch and then shrink back down.
The softer RP brass is being stretched out by the expander, but its not shrinking back down as much.
Reducing the expander diameter a thousandth or two will make it work with all types of cases.