Why Dillon not good

[Ahhnother8]

rifle capable of: I do not know yet: it is a remington VTR 700 with badger rings/base and Mark4 m1 scope: it should be very accurate


my level of accuracy:

* iam just back into the game. I used to shoot in the army up to 300 yards with a FRF1 (7.62 NATO) and 100 yards (bulleyes only)
with FAMAS (5.56). I had a very good accuracy...now that was 15 years ago.
* I went last weekend to shoot 100 yards (all holes touching each other)



What level i want to attain: BEST as possible (i hate mediocrity)
How far? it will depends my skills. I will go step by step.


How much time and money do you have to test? talk to my wife !
What brass, primer, bullet, and powder will you use? I do not know (yet)
Are you a proficient handloader now? NO AT ALL
Will you be loading thousands of rounds a year? YES

Ok, now things are getting clearer...

(remington VTR 700 - very accurate) It might be and it might not be. Guns will be guns. Also, "very accurate" is a relative term. Ask a benchrester or an F-classer what MOA they are looking for and most people will think they are full of $#!+. Without their extreme accuracy levels, they will NOT win. EVER!! So be realistic and see what your rifle is capable of.

Best possible accuracy is a function of time and money, which is a function of kitchen passes!! Don't expect to shoot range pick-up brass, surplus powder, miscellaneous primers, and junk bullets to accomplish any type of accuracy. Yes, some of these may work out ok, but it is dumb luck and a waste of time and money trying to stumble into it. Buy good stuff!!

Personally, I would start with a single stage press or a turret press. Learn to be a great handloader, then move up to a progressive. You CANNOT load the BEST possible ammo on a progressive, unless you use it as a single stage. And that is another option. It's not the press that determines the quality of the ammo, it is how it is used. Some of the people who have posted have developed systems to use a progressive to punch out some great ammo. But they are not stuffing brass in one side, and pulling the handle every five seconds, and kicking out match-grade ammo. Single stage presses are $100+-, and will ALWAYS be of use here and there. And if purchased used, they will not lose any value if re-sold.

Proven combination for .308:

Varget
155 Sierra - out to and beyond 1000 yards
168 Sierra - out to 600
175 Sierra - out to and beyond 1000 yards
These bullets are EASY to get to shoot accurately. If they don't, it is not likely that ANY will.
Fed 210M or CCI BR primers
Winchester or Lapua brass

The above "stuff" has likely won more matches than any other. It just plain works, and is not a compromise on anything!!

Oops, almost forgot. Barrel length and twist? Yes, it matters. And actually, the chamber also. Some are pretty short, so a heavy for caliber bullet will be too deep in the case. Nothing is easy in this game, so once you find what works, stick with it. Or let others find what works, and work off of that.

But, do NOT use other peoples loads and expect the same results. Every barrel, powder, brass, primer, and bullet combination is different. You will have to find a load that works for you. Pet peeve - copying military loads. Why? Most of it is not the most accurate ammo there is. It is perfectly suited for their purposes. Conversely, the Army Marksmanship Unit shoots some good stuff!!

Long, but possibly somewhat helpful...

Lane

[uscbigdawg]

I wouldn't think 4350 for Tubb. My 115-243 load is a 115gr. DTAC with Reloader 25. Got the load from George Gardner. Screamin' at 1000.

Rich

[rolly]

Ok, now things are getting clearer...

(remington VTR 700 - very accurate) It might be and it might not be. Guns will be guns. Also, "very accurate" is a relative term. Ask a benchrester or an F-classer what MOA they are looking for and most people will think they are full of $#!+. Without their extreme accuracy levels, they will NOT win. EVER!! So be realistic and see what your rifle is capable of.

Best possible accuracy is a function of time and money, which is a function of kitchen passes!! Don't expect to shoot range pick-up brass, surplus powder, miscellaneous primers, and junk bullets to accomplish any type of accuracy. Yes, some of these may work out ok, but it is dumb luck and a waste of time and money trying to stumble into it. Buy good stuff!!

Personally, I would start with a single stage press or a turret press. Learn to be a great handloader, then move up to a progressive. You CANNOT load the BEST possible ammo on a progressive, unless you use it as a single stage. And that is another option. It's not the press that determines the quality of the ammo, it is how it is used. Some of the people who have posted have developed systems to use a progressive to punch out some great ammo. But they are not stuffing brass in one side, and pulling the handle every five seconds, and kicking out match-grade ammo. Single stage presses are $100+-, and will ALWAYS be of use here and there. And if purchased used, they will not lose any value if re-sold.

Proven combination for .308:

Varget
155 Sierra - out to and beyond 1000 yards
168 Sierra - out to 600
175 Sierra - out to and beyond 1000 yards
These bullets are EASY to get to shoot accurately. If they don't, it is not likely that ANY will.
Fed 210M or CCI BR primers
Winchester or Lapua brass

The above "stuff" has likely won more matches than any other. It just plain works, and is not a compromise on anything!!

Oops, almost forgot. Barrel length and twist? Yes, it matters. And actually, the chamber also. Some are pretty short, so a heavy for caliber bullet will be too deep in the case. Nothing is easy in this game, so once you find what works, stick with it. Or let others find what works, and work off of that.

But, do NOT use other peoples loads and expect the same results. Every barrel, powder, brass, primer, and bullet combination is different. You will have to find a load that works for you. Pet peeve - copying military loads. Why? Most of it is not the most accurate ammo there is. It is perfectly suited for their purposes. Conversely, the Army Marksmanship Unit shoots some good stuff!!

Long, but possibly somewhat helpful...

Lane

I agree " Guns will be Guns" . When I said "very accurate", I meant so far to the extend of my skills and experience with the gun (which is only two weeks), and also based on the reputation of the Remington 700...which I believe thay all overshadow my own marksmanship skills.
In short, the rifle is better than I am ! (so far)

Your knowledge that you are sharing is very helpful.
Thank you !

[rolly]

I wouldn't think 4350 for Tubb. My 115-243 load is a 115gr. DTAC with Reloader 25. Got the load from George Gardner. Screamin' at 1000.

Rich

who is George Gardner?

[rksimple]

who is George Gardner?

Owner, GA Precision. Top 'smith, shooter, etc. Good guy.

http://www.gaprecision.net/

[30Cal]

It'll work fine. You generally can't really use the full progressive routine with rifle cases as there is usually a fair amount of necessary case prep (trimming etc). You truly get your money's worth out of it when loading for pistols.

The powdermeasure works fine for excellent accuracy. As with any powdermeasure, it's consistancy is directly related to how consistantly you operate it. In this case, since it's mounted to the press, any variations you induce are amplified. Smooth, uniform press operation will produce low variation.

After an hour of tinkering and data collection, I can predict when a charge is going to be out, and I just dump it without any fuss. I'm able to keep my charges within 0.3grs which will easily shoot inside 1MoA through a good rifle and with a good bullet and powder/charge combination. I run only one shell on the shellplate at a time. If you were to weigh each charge and keep them inside 0.1grs, you'd have a difficult time measuring a difference at typical distances. A lot of people say that you must weigh each charge to get accuracy; most of them can't quantify what difference it makes on a target.

[djacks]

Go look at this alternative powder measure that can be attached to the RL550B for around $300 with
the progressive adapter. http://www.quick-measure.com/qm.htm

[Jicko]

I have been told by many people:
Do not get a DILLON if you want to reload 308 for rifle.

Why? Please support your arguments
Thanks

I use RL15, cannot get Dillon RL550B powder measure to drop consistant charge.

My 308 is for long range precision, so consistant powder charge is very important to me.

Also, for rifle rounds, you can't really take the benefit of the progressive... you would need to SIZE then TRIM, you can't just go SIZE, then DROP powder, then SEAT bullet, then DONE.... so you would need to use the Dillon as single stage press.

Lastly, depending on whether you are using it as progressive or single stage... you will get inconsistant SEATING result if you fully loaded your stations vs you only have it as single stage.

I still love my RL550B, for plinking 223 and handgun loads, it is fine, and it is still THE BEST(Dillon) out there...

But for my precision 308s, I use a RCBS single stage.

[Jicko]

'm able to keep my charges within 0.3grs which will easily shoot inside 1MoA through a good rifle and with a good bullet and powder/charge combination.

My rifle sucks. I need to keep it +/- 0.1grs to get it 3/4MOA.

Your rifle rocks. Too bad you keep it within 0.3grs to get it 1MOA, if you keep it to +/- 0.1grs, you would have a 1/2MOA or 1/4MOA rifle(combo)... all these REALLY matters when you are going "distance" (600yds - 1000yds).

I guess, you only need to work hard on it till your own personal "goal".... if all you want is 1MOA and all you shoot is 100yds.... then you can be slobbier than others...

That's the reason, all i need for my 3guns 223rounds are 2-4MOA, and for 25yds to 100yds ish.... I run them thru my RL550B....

[30Cal]

My rifle sucks. I need to keep it +/- 0.1grs to get it 3/4MOA.

When I do load development, I intentionally pick worst-case components. I find a couple outliers on my brass bucket (heavy and light) and same with bullets (if I can find any). When I shoot groups, half will have heavy charges in heavy cases and half will have light ones in light cases. If it won't shoot well, I move on.

Basically, I seek out loads are going to shoot well with minimal effort at the loading bench. For 600yds, I'll usually spend more time and weigh them out.

I shoot across the course. 1MoA is plenty adequate. A half MoA load would be tough for me spot and is way inside what I can consistantly shoot. Virtually everyone I know will gain more points through practice and dryfiring than they can at the bench.

[Ahhnother8]

After an hour of tinkering and data collection, I can predict when a charge is going to be out, and I just dump it without any fuss. I'm able to keep my charges within 0.3grs which will easily shoot inside 1MoA through a good rifle and with a good bullet and powder/charge combination. I run only one shell on the shellplate at a time.

Totally agree. In fact, a 1 1/2 grain variance would likely still result in a 1 MOA group, in a good rifle. Just looking at my 100 yard test targets, and that would be true with most of them. What is happening is the best groups would print inside of the worst groups. So the worst groups would obviously define the outside of the total group.

If you were to weigh each charge and keep them inside 0.1grs, you'd have a difficult time measuring a difference at typical distances. A lot of people say that you must weigh each charge to get accuracy; most of them can't quantify what difference it makes on a target.

Respectfully disagree!! I have piles of targets that will show it. But am glad many competitive shooters believe this. They would be much harder to beat otherwise.

Personally, I load everything to within +-.02 grains (+-1 kernel of Varget or 2 kernels of N540). My test targets show that a .25 grain change can increase or decrease group size SUBSTANTIALLY. It always also changes the SD and ES. Granted, it would be nice to find loads where this does not occur, but those loads are few and far between. When I make a 1/4 MOA sight change, in calm conditions, it shows on the target. And that is with iron sights. With a scope, there is no doubt you can move a bullet 1/4 MOA, with great guns and ammo!

It always seems to come back to: what EXACTLY do you want to do, and what do you expect out of your equipment and yourself? Answer these questions and it is MUCH easier to plan an appropriate path.

Lane

[grywlfbg]

A progressive press can be a problem for rifle ammo, but not necessarily because of powder variation.

Rifle brass stretches more than most hand gun brass. The correct sequence for a lot of "traditional" rifle loaders using a progressive press would be to:
size cases
inspect and trim as needed
then run them through the progressive

all the best,

Mike

This is what I do w/ my 650.

I lube cases and run through the 650 to size and deprime (no powder funnel). Then I pull the case out before the seating die, trim, swage, and then run them back through the 650 to load. Obviously I do this in batches of a few thousand at a time of prep and then load as I need them.

That works well for me but I'm shooting Tactical matches mostly at 70 yds or shorter. Maybe 3-4 matches per year go out to 350 so absolute accuracy isn't that high on my list.

[ME_Mike]

Does adding a dillon trimmer help? Wouldn't running all the brass through a preset trimmer on one of the stations alleviate the need for the two step process. Are there enough stations on the 650 to accommodate this?

[uscbigdawg]

A solution that one can use with a 650 is to just buy a dedicated toolead with the Dillon case trimmer attached. From there, you can feed the cases in the normal casefeeder and trim as needed. They'll cycle through and be done in no time flat.

Frankly, I don't trim my 223 brass. I just shoot it. Oh, I pick up as much as I can, but usually lose it before the necks stretch enough to necessitate trimming. Now, when I teach, I'm not rich (no pun intended) so I'm a brass whore. Most of my students are using LC and so it's got a little of everything wrong with it (military crimps, et. al.).

That's where having a retired father who LOVES reloading comes in to do the trimming and pocket reaming.

Rich

[eaglemike]

Does adding a dillon trimmer help? Wouldn't running all the brass through a preset trimmer on one of the stations alleviate the need for the two step process. Are there enough stations on the 650 to accommodate this?

No..... The correct way is to size and deprime, then trim, then clean and deburr, then the other steps.......

The "extra" station for the 650 is usually set up with the powder check device. You could rotate some of the dies around, but IIRC the powder slide return rod won't line up correctly if you do that.

As noted, a lot of people use .223 without going through the size and trim process. If you're shooting for real accuracy, a lot of people feel it is necessary to do the above extra steps.

If and when you decide to load rifle ammo - please don't just run the sizing die down to the shellplate or shell holder and assume it's correct. It can result in over-sizing your brass, to the point it can't be fired easily, due to the excess headspace. This can also lead to other problems, like case separations, etc.

YMMV........

all the best,

Mike