Back to Square One - Beginner's Blues

[Pauliedad]

So here's my perspective.

Stilly with a Dillon????
He'd just spray paint it red and post pics. Not good.

Send it to Dillon OR
If you still feel like tinkering I'd bet there's something going on in the primer system. Pull it apart and look for wear/friction points.
Every time I have felt something more than normal tension it has been something other than the dies and case friction. Keep her lubed. The sturdiness of these things is awesome and I have mine bolted to a steel post in my garage floor. Early on I understood they didnot like to wiggle at all. Plus it helps you feel exactly what is going on as you work.

As for deprime, pin might have an issue IF the die is properly adjusted.

I pick up range brass which is mostly glockified as well as my own and the Dillon resize die is all it gets. No, I don't clean primer pockets and I've NEVER had a primer not feed. That made me think the assembly may be gummed up with something. I can also see that if the primer ring with all the little holes
in it ever had even one mis aligned stroke it would cause major problems.

I really like the Dillon (granted I've never pulled a lever on anything else but the few times I have had to tinker or adjust it was a lube thing.) but I only tinker when I'm in a mood to.
Good luck and remember not to let Stilly have it under any circumstances.

[milotrain]

So I don't get people saying they can reload x-hundred rounds per hour on a multi-stage... they're obviously not counting the time spent handling each individual piece of brass to make sure it's READY to go into the press. They're either using new brass or simply not counting the time to prep each case. Am I right?

With rifle brass I don't count prep time, and prep takes longer than reloading for rifle brass.

With pistol brass I use carbide dies, and the come out of the range back and land into a tumbler. I then check the headstamp as they go into the press to make sure nothing snuck in there (spp in lpp group, bad pocket, etc). I can run an easy 400 .45acp rounds in 1 hour on a 550 assuming my primer tubes are packed up.

[bruss01]

Last night I got home and had the itch to resize and deprime some more.

As everything was going well with the single stage, I decided to stick with it.

Seeing as how I had finished the gallon ziploc bag of tumbled/polished range brass I worked on over the weekend, it was time to grab the next bag off the pile. This one was full of tumbled/polished .40 nickled brass. This is what I had been using in the Dillon previously.

Well, right off the bat it seemed that the press was working harder on this batch. I recalled what Sarge recommended about the Hornady One Shot and decided to give it a try. I dumped the brass into a five gallon bucket and gave it a good long "shhhhhhhtt" with the One Shot. Agitated the brass around a bit... another "shhhhhhttt" and more mixing up. Finally, a third "shhhhhhtt" and lots of mixing up and tumbling around. That part is noisy - so I wore my range muffs for that.

So scooping out a big bowl of cases, I sat down at the single stage. Right off, it did seem easier and smoother to work the cases. However, they still seemed harder to work than the regular brass I had done over the weekend. Maybe that's par for the course when working with nickel plated cases. And I noticed that there were some that were extra hard, and not smooth... such as high force to get started, low force in the middle, and pretty high force again at the end of the stroke. I started paying attention to the cases as I put them in the shell holder. Some had sealed primers. And some were goose-egged (maybe from handling or being stepped on at the range). I'm guessing the ones that were specially tough had both, in additon to being nickled cases.

Anyway, I did about 250 or 300 of them. I can definitely say, they are not all equally easy even with the One Shot. Nine cases will go through with ease and then there is that tenth case that requires extra oompf. It seems difficult to me - if I were using the multi-stage - to know if something is binding up or out of whack, or if it is simply a case that is harder to resize and deprime. I'm pretty sure that working the lever extra hard to get through a tough case, makes the action work a bit differently on all the other stations for that stroke as well. Hmmm.

Oh, and I DID have two of the nickled cases fail to completely eject the spent primer. I noticed the case was hard to remove from the shell holder - because the primer was partly ejected... sticking out prominently from the case... but not fully ejected. The first one I thought was maybe a fluke but the second one persuaded me to adjust the depriming pin deeper. After that adjustment, I did not have any more failures to remove the primer. I could see something like that having a BIG effect on a progressive press. Such as, primer doesn't eject, new primer won't go in, lever jams up because the primer mechanism won't fully cycle... so the powder throw is off and the bullet being seated doesn't get seated right... stop the presses, empty out all the stations - frustration.

So at this point, I am thinking it is not so much something wrong with the press... as much as it is variation between individual cases, and my relative inexperience in identifying and resolving these issues.

But if you stick with it you should work out these issues. Make the press run as smoothly as possible which means, maybe consider resizing off press and priming off press so that all the press needs to do is drop powder, seat and crimp...

In all honesty you really should consider doing that and seeing if things change.

Keep the suggestions coming... I am definitely learning things from this experience! So far, I am thinking that I make the resizing/depriming a single stage process to prep the cases for the progressive. That should ensure the Dillon has consistent brass to work with, which should make the production of consistent ammo more of a sure thing.

[bruss01]

Another episode of primers not being fully ejected...

Tightened the decapping pin down a little more...

Man, these primers are tough... push just a little harder...




BROKE THE FREAKING DECAPPING PIN!!!! AAARRRRRGGGGHHH!!!!!

[bruss01]

BENT TWO MORE!!!!

[bruss01]

Ok - a mystery has been revealed.

The first pin broke off in the bottom of the case, at an angle. It looks like the next two came down on top of it, bending it into a "J" shape. And of course, bending themselves in the process.

SIGH

I'm done for the night. And I need a Hornady Zip Spindle kit and a Dillon decapping pin.

[bruss01]

Not done for the night after all. I managed to score a zip spindle from another Hornady die set (.44 Special) and a shell holder from a lee die set (#19) that were on hand. Had a few more with tough primers - and felt them out very carefully, like walking on ice, not wanting to break another pin - but managed to get through the remainder of that bucket of brass.

I can see that having a supply of bendable (zip spindle) and breakable (decapping pins) on hand is going to be a very good idea. I had several of the Lee pins but thus far hadn't ordered any spares for the Dillon or Hornady die sets. When I was still NEW new to the hobby and ordering the dies, I figured they were pretty much interchageable - well they are, but there are some internal differences I hadn't thought through at that point and just bought what was available at the time. Now I can see that standardizing would probably have been a good thing. At least this way, I am getting exposure to several brands and can make my own opinion about them. I like the design of the Dillon dies the best except I can't determine how they lock the depriming pin depth... Hmmm. Will have to think on that one.

[klewan]

The machine is only as good as the brass you run. I have a backyard range and pickup my brass and run it. None of it is crimped, has bent rims, or bulged cases.

Range pickup, another story. Those go into the tumbler, then I stand them up on my bench, group of 50, and look for any that are taller or shorter than the majority. That's where I separate the .357 from the .38. Or the .380 and makarov from the 9mm. Look down into all the cases with a flashlight, finding the smaller case nested inside or the wad of media that got caught on a spider web. Also find the berdan primed ones and chuck those. Then I deprime and ream 100% of the primer pockets, just touch the brass to the reamer for a second or two.

Now I can run them, and not have all kinds of priming issues or breaking die parts. The reloading manuals don't make an effort to explain how funky brass will make you crazy. Or how to check the brass.

[Davisje011]

So I don't get people saying they can reload x-hundred rounds per hour on a multi-stage... they're obviously not counting the time spent handling each individual piece of brass to make sure it's READY to go into the press. They're either using new brass or simply not counting the time to prep each case. Am I right?

Somewhat, but I have the 1200b trimmer on my 650, so I guess you can say:

1000 peices of .223:
2 hours tumbling in walnut
1.5 hours resizing and trimming
2 hours tumbling in corncob
1.5 hours loading finished brass.

Any bad brass can be easily picked out of the assembly line as you go.

[bruss01]

So all told, you average 7 hours total for one thousand .223 empty brass into loaded cartridges.

So you spend about 25 seconds per brass by doing it in batches... ok, sounds realistic.

That works out to around 143 rounds per hour. That's not a bad average IMHO.

IF one were getting paid for that time, I wonder what the average hourly wage would be? Figure the price of loaded ammo, minus what the powder, primer and bullet cost you. I'm sure it's not "nothing" but it's also probably not a wage most of us could afford to work for. So really, loading ammo is not so much about saving money as it is a hobby... the way knitting is a hobby for my wife. She does it not because we could not afford to buy hats and sweaters, but because she enjoys the process of creation.

[gemoose23]

So all told, you average 7 hours total for one thousand .223 empty brass into loaded cartridges.

So you spend about 25 seconds per brass by doing it in batches... ok, sounds realistic.

That works out to around 125 to 143 rounds per hour. That's not a bad average IMHO.

IF one were getting paid for that time, I wonder what the average hourly wage would be? Figure the price of loaded ammo, minus what the powder, primer and bullet cost you. I'm sure it's not "nothing" but it's also probably not a wage most of us could afford to work for. So really, loading ammo is not so much about saving money as it is a hobby... the way knitting is a hobby for my wife. She does it not because we could not afford to buy hats and sweaters, but because she enjoys the process of creation.

Davisje's time did include 4 hours of tumbling.. if I were paying him.. he would be loading other prepped brass ammo while the tumblers run.

[Davisje011]

Yeah, it's not like i'm shaking the tumbler myself.

I make ammo for myself, it's of higher quality and accuracy than commerical, and it's fun.

If I were into commercial reloading, i'd use a 1050 and industrial tumblers.

My 650 is enough for me and a couple close friends for range day. That's not to say a 650 can not be used for heavy commercial volume, they can. In fact, they do.

I don't know why you're having so many problems with your 650. Honestly, it set up easy and worked perfectly for me, couldn't be happier with my purchase. I know there are thousands out there who share my sentiments.

[bruss01]

Last night I got the Redding de-glock push-through die. Had a little difficult getting it set up (the installation instructions were either incorrect or work only for the Redding press) but I did manage to get it working properly halfway through my first bucket of brass. The brass goes in with next to zero resistance until the last little bit when it gets tighter... then *thunk* it is through the die. The Hornady Single Stage is working smoothly - I took it apart, cleaned and re-greased everything. It had been making a squeak that annoyed the wife. And an annoyed wife is no happy way to go through life.

I can tell there is still some individual variance to the cases, because some go through like butter, and some get really tight and require and extra bit of effort right at the end of the cycle. I'm guessing those are the truly "glocked" cases ironing out their bulging bellies. Nobody wants their brass all glocked up. Especially Mr. Dillon. Or at least, MY Mr. Dillon LOL.

So I've now finished re-size, deprime and de-glocking two buckets of brass on the single stage. Maybe sometime this weekend I will run some of it through the Dillon 650 and see if I notice a difference.

[bruss01]

Davisje's time did include 4 hours of tumbling.. if I were paying him.. he would be loading other prepped brass ammo while the tumblers run.

True... so that makes it even a better average. It takes probably - what? - 15 minutes to set up the tumbler with media and swap it out, separate the media afterwards, all told? So maybe his true average of actual "work" per is closer to 300 rounds an hour. That's not too shabby. I think it would be hard to come close to that on a single stage.

Now of course, that probably doesn't include time for stoppages. That's what's killing me right now. Probably most of that is due to my relative inexperience with the press, but partly some also due to irregularities in the input materials (cases etc). I'm hoping that depriming this nickeled brass with sealed primers is going to make a difference. Those puppies were sealed in there GOOD.

[Che762x39]

The "Blue" in question is a Dillon 650 that was gifted to me by an acquaintence who lost interest in reloading. ...