primer problems need wisdom!

[M27]

Not a hot load, there is no primer flow. Just a push back of the primer. Mostly light load. Also shoulder setback too far and the brass was too far forward in the chamber when fired. Check your resizing die, and shoulder dimensions. If that is not the problem, check the chamber dimensions and/or bolt.

this

[eaglemike]

thanks for explaining it!!

the brass was periodically checked with case gauge... fit fine...

ook and can you explain shoulder set back?? ive never really understood this... should be neck sizing after my first firings too and not full length sizing? i read that people say "bump the shoulder back" but never understood it??

is there a video that explains it?

How did you check it with the case gauge?
When you pushed the sized brass into the gauge, was the head lower than the end of the gauge?
I'm with the others here - most likely sized too much - shoulder set back too far. Could be an oversize chamber, but the most common is shoulder set back.

[tiller]

How did you check it with the case gauge?
When you pushed the sized brass into the gauge, was the head lower than the end of the gauge?
I'm with the others here - most likely sized too much - shoulder set back too far. Could be an oversize chamber, but the most common is shoulder set back.

Yes it was lower than the guage... That may be the problem then???


Will it be a problem for my ar?

[stilly]

What is primer flow? I don't trust the others on the internets, I would rather read it here. I do not think that I ever read about Primer flow. It sounds like something that happens once a month for five days though.

Is that where the primer flattens up and kinda expands before pushing out (thus a sign of pressure).

And how could a light load do this? I make light loads in .45 and all they do is not cycle or eject the case. BUT 4.0 gr of WST pushing a 230gr rn plated will make the case pop out but not eject and thus give you a jam on the way back to the chamber.

[kylemurdoc]

The brass might of been swaged to deep.

[wtkaiser]

My Hornady manual (#3) does a nice job of explaining primer flow, and it's way too lengthy to be getting into on a Q&A forum like this. RG1 does a pretty nice explanation, though.

Stilly, I would rather read it in a manual than here, but yes, better here than elsewhere on the net.

[eaglemike]

Yes it was lower than the guage... That may be the problem then???


Will it be a problem for my ar?

They might not fire in the AR. I've seen this a few times before. Pull the loads, hopefully you don't have a large number.
The condition is known as "excessive headspace." The proper gauge has a step at the head (large hole) end. The case head should sit between the low and high step after sizing.
Many people neck size only for a bolt gun. Lee also makes a sizing die called a "collet die" - these are pretty easy to use. Semi-auto guns usually require full length sizing.
You might want to spend a bunch of time reading reloading manuals. There's hundreds of useful tidbits. Even older manuals will teach a lot, in some cases more than current printings. I have some I picked up at a garage sale more than 25 years ago....... some guy named Ackley........

[thomashoward]

Not a hot load, there is no primer flow. Just a push back of the primer. Also shoulder setback too far and the brass was too far forward in the chamber when fired. Check your resizing die, and shoulder dimensions. If that is not the problem, check the chamber dimensions and/or bolt.

If this brass has been fired in this chamber, size down to the bottom of the neck only. you can see a sizing line come down the neck and check fit by closing the bolt on a sized case often. it should close but require a small effort.Once you can close the bolt stiffly you are sized for that chamber. you are creating head-space by over sizing for a bolt gun. read about neck sizing only. I only neck size for bolt guns.

.223 are sized for AR by die coming down to the shell holder but not a hard pop-over.keep separate from your bolt loads.

[ar15robert]

too much pressure the primers usually flatten.

[GeoffLinder]

Yes, the cases had too much shoulder setback and that is why primer stepped back. Case head is supposed to stretch back to breech face in bolt, they were too long to do so with this light of a load (yes, 26gr varget is a light load under a 55gr) so the primer went back to breech face instead.

1st off, you do not need to or want to use a small base die for a bolt action.

2nd, you do not need to set shoulder back much if at all for a bolt action. It's OK to use a SB die, just not optimum for a bolt action, just set it so no shoulder setback is done, but I advise getting a size die that is not SB for your bolt action loading. Save the SB die for semi-auto reloading, this is what it is intended for.

3rd, you did not necessarily need to resize the cases if they were brand new just to fire form them to your chamber. It was not a good idea to set the shoulder back that far because the cases did not stretch back to meet breech face on first firing so they did not fully fire form and now this will need to be done again to properly stretch case to correct length (chamber shoulder to meet the breech face in bolt).

Get a case gauge that indicates shoulder setback and setup your die with it AFTER firing these cases again with a hotter load of Varget (nothing less than 27.5gr-28gr will do the job). Fire forming requires a HOT loading to do the job properly.

Get the following gauge first:

http://www.lewilson.com/casegage.html

Then re-fire the cases after running them through a minimal sizing pass. You want the die screwed out far enough so that it DOES NOT set the shoulder back but only squeezes the case mouth back to proper diameter to grip bullet properly.

After they have been properly fire formed, drop a fired case into the gauge and using the depth measuring tip of a caliper, find out how far the case head is down from the top face of gauge. Then resize that case with die barely screwed in and test the case in gauge with caliper to see if it is at same depth or has dropped in gauge because shoulder was setback. If no difference, then screw die in a little bit and repeat on same case until it just drops about .001" from where it was the first time you measured it.

This is correct (maximum) level of shoulder setback you want for a bolt action, if any at all. Best accuracy will be had with none to .001 setback at the very most with a bolt action. For hunting, you want reliability so use .001 (max) setback to insure easy chambering of rounds. For target shooting, slightly hard bolt closing is not an issue so size for no shoulder setback.

Hope this helps.

[tiller]

Yes, the cases had too much shoulder setback and that is why primer stepped back. Case head is supposed to stretch back to breech face in bolt, they were too long to do so with this light of a load (yes, 26gr varget is a light load under a 55gr) so the primer went back to breech face instead.

1st off, you do not need to or want to use a small base die for a bolt action.

2nd, you do not need to set shoulder back much if at all for a bolt action. It's OK to use a SB die, just not optimum for a bolt action, just set it so no shoulder setback is done, but I advise getting a size die that is not SB for your bolt action loading. Save the SB die for semi-auto reloading, this is what it is intended for.

3rd, you did not necessarily need to resize the cases if they were brand new just to fire form them to your chamber. It was not a good idea to set the shoulder back that far because the cases did not stretch back to meet breech face on first firing so they did not fully fire form and now this will need to be done again to properly stretch case to correct length (chamber shoulder to meet the breech face in bolt).

Get a case gauge that indicates shoulder setback and setup your die with it AFTER firing these cases again with a hotter load of Varget (nothing less than 27.5gr-28gr will do the job). Fire forming requires a HOT loading to do the job properly.

Get the following gauge first:

http://www.lewilson.com/casegage.html

Then re-fire the cases after running them through a minimal sizing pass. You want the die screwed out far enough so that it DOES NOT set the shoulder back but only squeezes the case mouth back to proper diameter to grip bullet properly.

After they have been properly fire formed, drop a fired case into the gauge and using the depth measuring tip of a caliper, find out how far the case head is down from the top face of gauge. Then resize that case with die barely screwed in and test the case in gauge with caliper to see if it is at same depth or has dropped in gauge because shoulder was setback. If no difference, then screw die in a little bit and repeat on same case until it just drops about .001" from where it was the first time you measured it.

This is correct (maximum) level of shoulder setback you want for a bolt action, if any at all. Best accuracy will be had with none to .001 setback at the very most with a bolt action. For hunting, you want reliability so use .001 (max) setback to insure easy chambering of rounds. For target shooting, slightly hard bolt closing is not an issue so size for no shoulder setback.

Hope this helps.

first off i thank all you guys for replying with great info... the info above has probably been the most usefull!!

but the brass i used was picked out of my plinking brass... as i can not find any new brass in the store... i needed decent brass to shoot the new gun last weekend... therefore why i felt it needed to be somewhat fireformed??

i obviosly know that i shouldnt sb size for a bolt gun...

this brass was sized on a buddies 1050... i asked him about it being over sized... and he said thats the way he likes it... i guess he has a tighter chamber on one of his AR's... thats his thing... the brass seems fine in my ar...

the info above was great about neck sizing... was the exact info i was looking for!!!


thank you all for your input

[GeoffLinder]

first off i thank all you guys for replying with great info... the info above has probably been the most usefull!!

but the brass i used was picked out of my plinking brass... as i can not find any new brass in the store... i needed decent brass to shoot the new gun last weekend... therefore why i felt it needed to be somewhat fireformed??

i obviosly know that i shouldnt sb size for a bolt gun...

this brass was sized on a buddies 1050... i asked him about it being over sized... and he said thats the way he likes it... i guess he has a tighter chamber on one of his AR's... thats his thing... the brass seems fine in my ar...

the info above was great about neck sizing... was the exact info i was looking for!!!


thank you all for your input

Only new brass really needs to be fire formed. For used brass in a bolt action, test chamber the brass in your gun before sizing, if it chambers then just neck size (die set to not set shoulder back), if it won't chamber, set shoulder back a bit at a time till it chambers and then run all the brass through size die with that setting. Then shoot it all and check to see if it chambers after that (before sizing), if so, just neck size or do minimal shoulder setback (.001 at max) from there on out. You should get at least 7-10 firings from .223 brass in a bolt gun, probably more.

For a bolt action, I would recommend doing your loading on a single stage press system like a RCBS Rock Chucker, this gives you much better individual step control as opposed to a progressive like the 1050. You won't be doing bulk loading for a bolt action anyway

Moral of the story here is, AR's and bolt guns are different systems, don't listen to a buddy when he says something like that

[tiller]

Only new brass really needs to be fire formed. For used brass in a bolt action, test chamber the brass in your gun before sizing, if it chambers then just neck size (die set to not set shoulder back), if it won't chamber, set shoulder back a bit at a time till it chambers and then run all the brass through size die with that setting. Then shoot it all and check to see if it chambers after that (before sizing), if so, just neck size or do minimal shoulder setback (.001 at max) from there on out. You should get at least 7-10 firings from .223 brass in a bolt gun, probably more.

For a bolt action, I would recommend doing your loading on a single stage press system like a RCBS Rock Chucker, this gives you much better individual step control as opposed to a progressive like the 1050. You won't be doing bulk loading for a bolt action anyway

Moral of the story here is, AR's and bolt guns are different systems, don't listen to a buddy when he says something like that

well your not listening to me now.... i could not find new brass anywhere around me to load up to shoot my new 700 the next day.... i have a bucket of already processed 223 brass that i load my ar with... i simply sorted threw the bucket and picked out LC brass by year... just becuase i wanted consistancy....


i know how to reload... im just new to bolt guns and did not understand neck sizing... the only press i own is a rock chucker! the brass was processed on a buddies press because i had a 5 gallon bucket of brass that needed to be trimmed and processed....

i thank you for all the info youve given me on neck sizing and bolt guns...

[blockfort]

Only new brass really needs to be fire formed.

Well, no brass needs to be fire formed, but if you are going to use your brass in just one bolt action gun, you can get better accuracy by fire forming it and then re-sizing only the neck after that (until it starts to stick, at which point you need to FL, or bump the shoulder). If you get new brass or pick up someone else's used brass, they both would benefit from being fire formed.

Fireformed brass will fit that one gun's chamber very closely, and all the brass will be exactly the same size. Neck sizing is really just to hold the bullet.

I FL resize new and used brass, so that even before it's fireformed, I at least have a consistent set for that shooting session. If I put a bunch of random brass through my gun, I won't be able to learn anything, as I won't know if my accuracy (or lack of) is due to me or the brass.

[GeoffLinder]

Well, needs may have been the wrong word, what I was referring to is you don't need to do so unless it's brand new (or from another gun as you mentioned) AND you want to work it into a specific batch for that gun.

Ah semantics