Need help with 450 Bushmaster loads.

[Slash2]

Update info

The factory rounds arrived so now I have some firm data.

The case length is 1.695".

The volume is 56.4 grs of water.

The bullet is .452" in diameter and .958" long. It was seated into the case .4"

The powder weighed 38.5 grs.

[ar15barrels]

Cartridge          : .450 Bushmaster
Bullet             : .452, 250, Hornady SXT Flex Tip
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.250 inch or 57.15 mm
Barrel Length      : 16.0 inch or 406.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 30000 psi, or 206 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

27 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 296                      95.6     31.6     2.05    1905    87.5    30000    4192   1.061  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H110                        93.4     30.8     2.00    1830    88.2    30000    3722   1.078  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110                    102.9     27.1     1.75    1825    95.0    30000    3457   1.067  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Enforcer                    82.5     26.1     1.69    1798    95.2    30000    3329   1.084  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400                        82.9     24.0     1.56    1778    94.0    30000    3232   1.091  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Solo 4100                  85.2     27.3     1.77    1767    91.1    30000    3238   1.091  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227                      104.9     29.2     1.89    1761    83.5    30000    3345   1.080  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N105                     83.9     20.6     1.34    1745   100.0    30000    2587   1.090  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BLUE DOT                    88.1     21.1     1.37    1733    98.6    30000    2869   1.101  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate XMR 5744                   91.4     27.4     1.78    1729    77.9    30000    3236   1.099  ! Near Maximum !

Matching Maximum Pressure: 35000 psi, or 241 MPa

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Winchester 296                     100.0     33.0     2.14    2001    90.0    35000    4434   0.993  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Hodgdon H110                        98.0     32.3     2.09    1924    90.6    35000    3950   1.009  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Ramshot Enforcer                    87.1     27.6     1.79    1889    96.9    35000    3511   1.015  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant 2400                        88.0     25.5     1.65    1874    95.9    35000    3440   1.020  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N110                    105.0     27.6     1.79    1860    95.7    31872    3527   1.040  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Solo 4100                  89.8     28.8     1.86    1858    93.2    35000    3436   1.021  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate XMR 5744                   96.5     28.9     1.87    1824    80.6    35000    3497   1.027  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Alliant BLUE DOT                    94.1     22.5     1.46    1824    99.5    35000    3032   1.029  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Vihtavuori N105                     88.9     21.9     1.42    1821   100.0    35000    2679   1.025  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Accurate No.1680                   104.5     34.5     2.23    1804    73.5    35000    3447   1.028  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[Slash2]

results

With your help I think I have a practice load I can live with!

I started at 10% below the 31.6 gr. of W296 recommendation and worked my way up. The light loads cycled the action but left the casing a little sooty and didn't flatten the primer, the recommended loads fired cleanly and flatten the primer and even a little hotter load was no where near the kick of the factory loads.

They did require magnum primers too.

This will be a very good starting point, thanks for the help!

[Slash2]

update

I felt a follow up to request my for 450 Bushmaster reloading info was in order. With the help of more knowledgeable people than myself, trial and error, and by probably making all of the common mistakes newbie’s make, I've learned a lot about reloading and in the process come up with some viable loads ( I think).

I started by searching the web where I learned that the cartridge is based off of a Winchester 284 case trimmed at the shoulder. So lacking the availability of cases and factory dies for the 450 I bought a 284 sizing die, a .45 seat and crimper and a couple hundred 284 cases. After cutting them off at the shoulder and I found that my .452 pilot for my trimmer wouldn't slide in the case without tremendous effort, so I brought out my torch to anneal the case mouth. After melting quite a few I finally figured out how to get them red hot without going too far, for the most part. Now, with a little lube, I could get the pilot into the case and trim them to length.

What I didn't factor in was that the case wall is thicker at that part of the case, so when I tried seating a test bullet and inserting it into the rifle, it stuck and required some gentle tapping on the bolt to get it out. A case reamer is on order, but I'm setting aside the 284 case route and focusing on using the cases from my spent factory rounds. This would be a good place to say "duh".

So, factory cases. I can de-cap and size them with the 284 die and seat and crimp with the .45 die. Starting with info from AR15barrels QuickLoad data I loaded up some rounds using WSRP primers, 250 gr Rainier FP bullets and W296 powder, staring 10% below the 31.6 QuickLoad recommendation
and working my way up in .3gr increments.

What I got was dirty incomplete burns with powder left in the barrel. After seeking advice I switched to magnum primers and increased my crimp. At 32.8 grs. of powder I got clean burns, moderate recoil and no signs of excess pressure. So I loaded a bunch and headed to the range.

Basically the bullets were all over the place, some even sideways. It was suggested that lightly plated Rainier bullets weren't meant for higher velocity rifle rounds. Here's another place to say "duh".

The Hornady 240 gr. XTP/MAG bullets arrived. I loaded a handful starting at 32.8 increasing in .3 increments and headed to the range. I quickly started seeing signs of increased pressure, the primers were flattening out more with each step up, so I stopped at 34.6grs. Scratching my head, I'm thinking "hmmm, Hornady doesn't use magnum primers, magnum primers might be causing the increased pressure even at loads way below the 38.5grs of whatever powder Hornady is using." Another "duh"?

I de-cap all of my empty cases and load up a new batch using Small Rifle primers this time. Starting at 32.8grs I again go up in .3 increments till I'm at 38.8 grs, near 100% of what the case will hold once the bullet is seated, and head to the range.

After each shot I check the case. At 37.0 grains I'm starting to feel the recoil of the factory rounds and there is still no sign of excess pressure in the cases. The primers aren't hardly flattening out at all. So I shot 'em all. The last primers didn't look much different from the first. I even checked the soot inside the cases. They didn't start to look light grey like the spent factory rounds until above 36.7 grs. of powder.

So here I am. I'm going to get a Chrony so I know what velocities I'm creating, then I'll start to work on an accurate round for pig hunting using Barnes copper bullets. I might even try to salvage some of the 284 cases once my reamer arrives, but I've learned it's best to solve one problem at a time. Another "duh"

It’s been fun, I hope I’ve been safe in my approach and not just lucky.

[Txshooter]

Great info Slash. Just curios....why did you go with the W296 powder ? I've never used any of the powders listed. By the way....Midway has the Hornady dies for the 450 Bushmaster now. Mine were shipped earlier this week and I'm hoping they get here tommorrow.

[Slash2]

W296 and H110 were the top two recomendations from QuickLoads. They are slow burning powders which I learned from my research are also used in the 454 Casull, the 460 S&W and many of the other large caliber rounds with similar case sizes and/or velocities. I've also used H110 on the 450 with similar results. Plus, for what it's worth they look similar to the factory powder, but then for all I know all of the slow powders look like that.

My 450 B dies are also scheduled to arrive tomorrow, wanna buy some slighty used Winchester 284 dies?

[MudBug]

I had to register here just for this thread. I've been trying to get some info on 450bm reloading going on at ar15.com but info is slow and so far slash2 has gone further than anyone else I know of.

I got 450bm reloading dies a few weeks ago but haven't used them yet.

I'm interested in your experience so far with the 284 cases, I bought 100 of them and cheap little cutoff saw from HF so I could cut them close and then trim to size, but maybe I'll hold off on it. or only try a few.

I was gonna try some of the 300 gr XTP/Mags but there are some 390 gr hard cast bullets that people are using in 460 S&W loads that seem to handle the velocity fine.

[Txshooter]

Hey Slash......since the Hornady XTP's aren't shaped like the factory bullets, are you loading them to the same AOL as the factory loads ?

[Slash2]

No, about 2.1" AOL. Just to where the groove in the bullet starts to hit the case. Don't ask me why there, it just looked like a good spot, and it gives the roll crimp die a little something to work with.

Like I said, I'm winging this whole thing.

As far as the 284 cases, I've had no luck at all. I've sized them but I can't get the case wall the right thickness. A .452 reamer takes to much and leaves a good size shelf down in the case. I'm sure there has got to be a way to make them work but I'm not patient enough.

I've just been reusing the brass from the factory rounds. Thank goodness for straight walls, the cases are holding up well.

Montana Gold has some .452 250 gr 45 Colt bullets for a reasonable price, I've been thinking about getting some of those, but so far between the Barnes X 250 and 275 gr HP bullets, the Hornady 230 and 240 gr HP bullets and the Rainier 250 TMJ bullets I,m just confusing myself trying to figure out the loads.

https://secure3.mooseweb.com/montanagoldbullet.com/pricelist.tpl

[ar15barrels]

I got booted from Calguns awhile back, I found this thread via Google.
I went through a lot of trouble, using a friends email and all to re-register just to say thanks before I get booted again.

If you behaved, they would probably let you stay.

[Slash2]

follow up on 284 cases

I've re-visited using the Winchester 284 case and honestly I don't know why I was having such a hard time the first go around, they seem to work fine.
Just cut 'em off at the shoulder, trim them to 1. 995" (I think thats the size, I'm away from my info, but whatever the factory case length is), and go. I backed off the roll crimp and used the taper crimp die. Now I just need to find out what difference the large rifle primers make with the powder I'm using compared to the factory small rifle primer. I'm headed to the range today with some progressively hotter loads to find out.

[TKM]

What size shellplate are you guys using? Since Midway has bumped my order back to the 17th I can't check the easy way.

Searching the intertubes hasn't really helped.

[Slash2]

.45 ACP.

[TKM]

Thanks, that seems to be the way to go.

Cheaper that way as I already have them. With my luck, the next ten will be one-0ffs.

[Slash2]

W284 case follow up

I'm giving up on using trimmed down W284 cases, at least till someone smarter than me comes along and tells me exactly how to make them work.

But, here's what I've experienced so far:

The trimmed case wall at the mouth seems to be about .001 or so thicker, although I don't see it when I mic them out, but when seating the bullet with the 450 die, the alignment sleeve often scrapes a little brass off of the case and sticks when retracting it from the die.

The large rifle primers increase the pressure a lot. I stepped down 4 grs. of powder from my other loads (34 grs H110 from 38 grs.) and I still had a moderately flattened primer on my first round. So I tried my next .5 gr. step up and blew the primer out of the pocket!

Back home, load six 32 gr. rounds. Next day at the range (the range fees alone would cover buying factory rounds instead of reloading these things) I hand load one in the chamber and fire, primer looks fine, load four into the mag, failure to feed, drop the mag, with effort pull the partially closed bolt back and extract the stuck round. Insert mag with 3 rounds, failure to feed. Again struggle to extract the stuck round and say f**k it, I give up, it's not worth it.

I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, but this is like walking into a dark room that you've never been in. You know there's a light switch in there somewhere, but for all you know there may an open bucket of paint by the wall, a coffee table with all of Aunt Martha's antique glass curious and a sleeping cat on the floor. Will you find the light switch before or after the other stuff?

Any insights, both helpful and critical are welcome. I mean we're talking eyes, hands and gun being at stake here and I don't know where the light switch is.