Less Lethal Ammo?

[Ziggy91]

Hey everyone,

Just saw a guy get nailed on tv with a bean bag from a 12 gauge. I realized how much safer it would be to use a projectile like that for home defense instead of spraying my walls with 00 buck, or god forbid hitting any of my family or friends.

I know some of you would say that any unauthorized visitors would get it between the eyes with the biggest bullet that's ready for action, but I want something obviously "less lethal" to use before I decide to take a life.

Anyone know where to purchase this kind of ammunition?
Is it even legal for me own this stuff?

Any advice is appreciated...

[joelogic]

IANAL, but for Self Defense to sick you must be in imminent danger. If you just wound the person he or she will sue.

[gunboat]

Joe is right - basically, if you have to shoot, shoot to kill. The life you save, may be your own.

[fremont lapua]

Depends on your city but is ok to have shipped to most parts of California. You can get them from Midway USA and cheaper than dirt although most people here do not like cheaper than dirt( they do not support California). I would load the shotgun with the first round being less leathal then all others with bird shot or buck shot then maybe a slug for last round in case you had to shot a further range or needed a tighter pattern for some reason. Remember you are not trying to kill but just trying to stop the attack and further force will get you in trouble. The first round being less leathal will help you in court which you will most likely be going to wether you wound or kill. Just my .02 cents I use a handgun for personal defense.

[Ziggy91]

/\ /\ /\ Thanks for the advice. I never keep my 870 loaded, but my side saddle always has 00 buck and slugs on it... I just wanted a setup like you described.

[johnny_22]

Shoot to "stop"

Joe is right - basically, if you have to shoot, shoot to kill. The life you save, may be your own.

You don't want to use the word "kill". You want the attacker to "stop". Whether he survives your defense is between the Paramedics and his God.

[Na-vah-duh]

Sounds like you just need some pepper spray / mace. It might sting their eyes though so you better keep an eye wash station handy as well. Wouldn't want them to get hurt while trying to hurt you.

[Twiggz]

I had the first round of my shotgun loaded with a bean bag, followed by 00 buck. I figured it was a great setup because if the bean bag didn't stop the threat the next round will.

After some debate I was convinced that if a threat is bad enough that I have to pull the trigger, It better be with something that will stop the threat and keep it stopped.

[AMProducts]

There are a few places that make LTL shot, slugs, and beanbags. Fiocci is the #1 maker for law enforcement, they make both rubber buckshot, and slugs. Wolf and Sellier & Bellot both sell LTL ammo, both shot and slug. I think CTD carries both. There's another manufacturer located up in the high desert outside LA that makes the bean bag rounds so many people talk about, however I think he is LE sales only.

In general, I think the advice you've been given about LTL ammo is pretty sound, most of the stuff I've seen will either do very massive damage or be lethal in the confines encountered in a house, so while you may not have the over penetration issues you would normally experience with full power buckshot, in most cases I would conclude it would either be lethal or nearly so. If you're shooting... shoot to kill, no matter what you're shooting.

IIRC the forest service does provide LTL ammo to residents of certain forest communities for wildlife control. While a person would probably be dead or wish they were after a tussle with LTL buckshot, a bear will take it as a good indication that it's time to leave, and will do so post-haste.

Hope that helps out with your buying decisions. For what it's worth, I have the fiocci buckshot and when I was able to find some, it was nearly $2/rd.

[Twiggz]

Depends on your city but is ok to have shipped to most parts of California. You can get them from Midway USA and cheaper than dirt although most people here do not like cheaper than dirt( they do not support California).

I never heard this. I've ordered a lot of ammo and other supplies from Cheaper than dirt. or is it just spicific items?

Sorry to thread jack, I just never heard that before.

[fremont lapua]

If you go to CTD web site and put in your city and state to see what ammo can be shipped you will see they will say no to San Francisco and Oakland, don't know about any other city that won't accept. I am curious if you could receive it from another place.

[sk8804]

personally I would rather know what direction its safe to fire. I.E. the direction that is less likely to hurt a bystander. 00 or 000 all the way if it were me. No way in hell am I gonna shoot somebody with a beanbag that could be carrying an ak.

[ireload]

Be careful with deploying bean bag at very close range. From prior test I have done it can penetrate the front wall a 5 gallon plastic pail at 10 feet and makes a good size dent on the back wall. From what my LE buddy told me that they deploy theirs at 20+ feet. Blunt force trauma for the receiver at very close range.

[sequoia_nomad]

Remember you are not trying to kill but just trying to stop the attack and further force will get you in trouble.

This is bad advice. Most ccw trainers will advise otherwise. If you perceived your life was in immediate danger (inside your home, in Ca) you have the right to use lethal force. If you aren't shooting to kill, that will be construed by a prosecutor to mean you didn't feel your life was truly in immediate danger. And since we're talking about a 12 gauge here, I don't think your marksmanship would be brought into question either.

If you truly, really, honestly feel you or a family member are about to be intentionally killed or maimed, shoot to kill. Don't fire a warning shot either, that is damning evidence that you did not truly feel your life was in danger. Warning shots and shooting people in the leg so they can't get away is all Hollywood.

If you're not shooting to kill, you probably don't have a legal right to shoot.

[Ziggy91]

/\ /\ /\

this actually makes sense...

As much as i hate to admit that a lawyer would win if i did something a certain way, i have to say shooting to kill actually makes the most sense. I'm pretty sure this just settled my mental debate wether or not to use less than lethal rounds for home defense.