Has anyone here ever seen leading?

[Whiterabbit]

I'm really hoping someone can chime in who knows the ins and outs of leading (not just I-read-about-it-on-the-internet).

I'm trying to understand the concept based on some pre-existing experience.

I have some moly coated bear creek bullets. Last batch of bullets I bought before these I would consider "better", and were 6% Antimony 2% Tin. I was told their max was 1400 fps. I know nothing about the bear creeks but since I don't think they are as good in general, I'd figure they are either 1400fps bullets or slower?

Anyways, the internet says simply pushing a bullet too fast or two slow causes leading. OK, simple enough. My cowboy loads at 700 fps never lead, so great. My magnum loads are *about* 1400 fps, I see powder in the barrel and understand that is not uncommon either. No leading.

So far so good.

Now I have these bear creeks, and the performance with regards to leading (they don't lead) is the same. So, I thought for fun, and to learn about leading, I would push two REALLY FAST. Around 2000 fps approximately, according to the Hodgdon website.

No leading. Not that I can see anyways. Searching google images for leading, my barrel didn't look anything like that. When I cleaned the gun, no lead chips came out. In fact, the barrel was pretty darn clean, almost no residue in there (to be fair, I shot 4 jacketed bullets at the end of the day, maybe it cleaned the barrel?)

Anyways, I have questions:

-How many rounds should I have to fire before I start to see obvious signs of leading?
-If I try more of these 2000 fps loads and see no signs of heavy leading, it should be good to go?
-If these moly coats aren't leading, why would I get the suggestion to limit velocity to 1400 (of the other moly bullet, should be similar)

Any other advice from more experienced folks that comes as a response to what I've written above is welcome too.

[BigBronco]

1 I have had leading with as little as 50 rounds.
2 Heavy leading. or no leading?
3 I think they can leave moly on the barrel. sometimes the first designs did.

[TKM]

I have cast some pure lead bullets (by mistake), before I knew better. I save that stuff for shotguns and muzzle loaders now.

If you run it any hotter than a Red Rider you will have a smooth bore most ricky tick.

It's not a really dangerous situation at first. As long as you catch it in time you can fix it.


Keep an eye on your group sizes and check for keyholes. A good two inch gun shouldn't start shooting six inch groups. If you follow the load books the bullets shouldn't be going through the paper sideways.

If anything weird starts happening, stop what you are doing and look at everything.

We are in a detail oriented sport and it's the little things that make your fingers go away.

Happy shooting and be careful. Nobody ever laughs at you for going home safe.

[Fjold]

I've peeled sheets of lead out of a 1911 with 200 grain SWCs at 900 fps.

[huckberry668]

Lead fouling is real but by the time you can 'see' lead fouling on the bore it's pretty bad. most of the heavy lead fouling is at the throat area. I used to shoot LaserCast bullets because they claim you can load them up to magnum velocity w/o fouling.... bull. Use an Outers Foul Out machine and you'll see leading.

I used to use Rem Bore Cleaner and JB Bore Paste, I polished a bell at the muzzle and had to rebarrel but abrasives will remove lead too.

[sonnyt650]

I don't know if it was lead, but whenever I shot some 180 gr lead bullets from my 40S&W there was some nasty caking of crud in the barrel which took dilligent brushing to get out. It looked like matte streaks with what looked like grains of dirt breaking up the surface if that means anything in the first inch or so of the barrel. I wouldn't be surprised if it was lead where it definitely wanted to stay in there, but again I'm not sure. I believe the load was on the light side though the P226 cycled just fine.

[Southpaw45]

I exclusivly use Bear Creek bullets in all my C.A.S shooting using 2 Ruger Vaqueros and a Marlin 1894CB in .45 Colt. Im using smokless powder and only clean my bores once a year. My rifle alone gets over 2 thousand rounds put through it in a year and the barrel looks spotless. Im a big believer in Bear Creek Moly bullets. My load is a 205 grn bullet with 5.5grns of Trail Boss powder. I chronoed 715 fps in the pistols and 770 fps in the rifle with the same load. Pushing a lead bullet with a hot load can melt the back of the bullet and cause leading without using a gas check. I never pushed the envelope on lead reloads with the molys....

[gunboat]

I presume your bearcreek bullets are cast plain base bullets--
Generally about 1500 is considered max for plain base -therefore their recommendation to limit velocity.
Weight and caliber is a factor as well
I can drive a gas checked 38gr pill to 2500 fairly easy in my 222rem.
If I push the envelope, I can maybe drive a 400 gr plain base 1300fps in my trapdoor. Since that about maxes the trapdoor out a gas check does no good. Paper patching is another method of lubing/sealing the boolit

One cause of leading is a bullet too small for the bore, gas forces itself around the bullet "melting" the surface.
Hardness is a limiting factor as well, driving a soft pill too fast can cause it to strip the rifling and leave lead fouling.
In a big bore, slow slug, like the 500gr in a trapdoor, softer alloy is good as it upsets and seals the bore better.
Your observation that possibly your jacketed pill cleared the bore after firing lead pills is correct. Many advocate one or two jacketed pills down the tube after a day of cast boolit shooting.
There are many variables and seemingly paradoxes in shooting cast boolits.
Lymans cast bullet handbook would probably serve you well -
my ha-penny

[iareConfusE]

I've had mild leading in my .357 Ruger GP100 when using Berry's hard cast bullets.

Here's an explanation I got from another Calgunner in a PM when I asked him the same question: From XDRoX

The most common situation is probably that the lead projectile is not sized properly to the barrel. Hot gasses cut past your projectile, atomizing the surface of the bullet and depositing same on the (relatively) cold barrel. This is why slugging the barrel is always recommended.

Another cause may be a rough barrel. This doesn't need further explanation. The remedy may be as simple as lapping the barrel.

A mismatch of powder burn rate, pressure, velocity and bullet hardness will also create barrel leading. The lead projectile must have it's base flattened (obturation) in order to seal the barrel. If the barrel is not sealed, the hot gasses will escape past the sides (gas cutting) and, as with an undersized bullet, atomize the lead and deposit it on the barrel. Typically, a hard cast bullet will not obturate with a slow burn rate powder, and a soft cast bullet with a fast burn rate powder will not be able to hold the developing pressure. Both will end up contributing to leading.

Then there is the lack of adequate lubrication. If your bullet is not properly lubed.....you get the picture.

The leading I had was very light and wasn't too difficult to remove. I had to use some copper Chore Boy scrubbers on a brush to remove all of the leading prior to selling, but even without removing it all the gun would still shoot perfectly.

[jonzer77]

I see leading when I use MBC

[bumpo628]

I presume your bearcreek bullets are cast plain base bullets--
Generally about 1500 is considered max for plain base -therefore their recommendation to limit velocity.
Weight and caliber is a factor as well
I can drive a gas checked 38gr pill to 2500 fairly easy in my 222rem.
If I push the envelope, I can maybe drive a 400 gr plain base 1300fps in my trapdoor. Since that about maxes the trapdoor out a gas check does no good. Paper patching is another method of lubing/sealing the boolit

One cause of leading is a bullet too small for the bore, gas forces itself around the bullet "melting" the surface.
Hardness is a limiting factor as well, driving a soft pill too fast can cause it to strip the rifling and leave lead fouling.
In a big bore, slow slug, like the 500gr in a trapdoor, softer alloy is good as it upsets and seals the bore better.
Your observation that possibly your jacketed pill cleared the bore after firing lead pills is correct. Many advocate one or two jacketed pills down the tube after a day of cast boolit shooting.
There are many variables and seemingly paradoxes in shooting cast boolits.
Lymans cast bullet handbook would probably serve you well -
my ha-penny

While I agree with everything you said and I know you know what you're talking about, I just wanted to point out one possible issue. Firing a jacketed bullet in a barrel with severe leading could cause the pressure to spike and kaboom.

I would recommend inspecting the bore before doing this to make sure that you can at least see the rifling and you're not shooting out of a 'smooth' bore due to lead buildup.

[bohoki]

i used bear creek 200 swc for years then when they went up in price to over a nickle a piece i bought lee molds and cast my own but they lead horrible

i also make 9mm with the same lead and it hardly leaves anything

maybe i am driving them too hard at 4.5 gn bullseye 230 lrn

i run my 9mm 3.5 bullseye and they are 124 rnl both tumble lube design 45 sized to 452 the 9 to 356

eh the savings more than covers the effort of chipping out the lead hunks from the grooves

[gunboat]

Bumpo - your caveat is correct of course. Thank you for the complement and pointing out my error.
I must admit I did not consider anyone being foolish enough to fire a round down a bore that badly fouled. In that scenario even another cast bullet round might possibly be unhealthy.
The practice of firing a few jacketed rounds presumed a reasonable amount of lead fouling. I have known a few folks that did it as "just because" even if there was no visible lead fouling
Modern lubes, better knowlege of lead compositions, modern powders, and years of experimentation have eliminated much of the serious lead fouling that used to be commonplace.
my ha-penny

[bjl333]

The moly coating is keeping the barrel from leading. In the old days you can buy hard casted bullets or ones with a gas check. While both are still available and still being used, the moly coated bullets are pretty good for non-leading.

There was another reason for leading, it is the revolver being out of time. When the bullet jumps from cylinder to the barrel and the alignment is off it could cause the bullet to shave a little off the side. Ones that happens it'll spit lead off the side and it will lead the barrel.

You could visually see the leading if the barrel was leaded. Before all these chemicals for lead removal we used to use the lead removal kit. that consisted of a ramrod and some cut out screens, as in screen door!!! We used to run those through the bore to get the lead out!

[bumpo628]

Bumpo - your caveat is correct of course. Thank you for the complement and pointing out my error.
I must admit I did not consider anyone being foolish enough to fire a round down a bore that badly fouled. In that scenario even another cast bullet round might possibly be unhealthy.
The practice of firing a few jacketed rounds presumed a reasonable amount of lead fouling. I have known a few folks that did it as "just because" even if there was no visible lead fouling
Modern lubes, better knowlege of lead compositions, modern powders, and years of experimentation have eliminated much of the serious lead fouling that used to be commonplace.
my ha-penny

Yeah, it seems kind of extreme but I just didn't want someone new to the hobby coming across this page and leaving with the wrong impression. IIRC, this issue is the reason that glock doesn't want you using cast bullets in their guns. It's not that cast bullets don't work, but an unmaintained gun will eventually become unsafe and they don't want the liability.