Noob question about 3-4 pc die set

[Nessal]

How does adding an extra step save time? Loading with 4 dies would take longer as there's a 4th die you'd have to run all the rounds through.


iareConfusE, please don't read the rest of my post as I respect your opinions and views and don't want you to hate me


Lee makes 3 die sets and 4 die sets. The only difference is the 4 die sets come with an extra die called the Lee Factory Crimp Die (LFCD).

The LFCD is a gimmick cleverly marketed by Lee to sell people something they don't need. Not only do you not need one, it can actually make your rounds less accurate.

No one has ever been able to tell me what the LFCD is suppose to do. If using a LFCD is making your ammo function better then you are doing something wrong. With a properly adjusted 3 die set, you should not get any issues. The problem is when people don't know how to properly adjust their dies, screw up rounds, and then shove them through a LFCD to "fix" them.

People have been reloading reliable ammo for a hundred years without this magic die. Why do we suddenly need it and what is it suppose to do?

What it does is size the whole round. Here's the problem. In order to size a round the die needs to be slightly smaller than the finished round because of back expansion. This means that besides "fixing" any abnormalities it is sizing a bullet that shouldn't be being sized. The bullet is already the right size. With FMJ, not a huge deal. The LFCD won't do too much damage. But with lead Any hand loader knows the importance of properly sized lead bullets. Even the slightest change in size can lead to awful results like leading. Even guys that use the LFCD don't use it on lead, even they admit it's not OK.

I have a buddy that posted some accuracy tests with rounds run through a LFCD and of course there was an obvious difference. Fully sizing a round after it's done can only cause problems.

So my take is do not buy the 4 die sets. There is no need for them and they do nothing.

BTW, I'm not arguing against seating and crimping in separate stages. On my progressive press I also seat and crimp in separate stages, but not with a LFCD.

I have also never seen the damage or difficulty with loading with the 3 dies sets. If I'm going to load on my single stage or my turret I always use a 3 die set and have never had a problem. I will agree that they are more difficult set up than a 4 die set, but come on, it's not that difficult to set up a 3 die set.

I'm normally not the argumentative type on forums but I feel like I have a calling against the LFCD, so I have my flame suit on and I'm ready to argue my views which I truly believe are accurate.

Sorry for the long rant.

Well it sounds like you don't use the LFCD so I won't ask you if you ever used it. However, I don't know where you get the idea that the LFCD sizes the round. It does NOTHING of the sort at all. If you take a look at the LFCD, it works like a collect and only puts a small amount of pressure on the neck. This action pushes the very tip of the neck into a cannelure on the bullet.

I have used the LFCD to load thousands of rounds and never had any issues at all. It's actually a very simple design and is good at its intended purpose on bullets with cannelure. After running it through the LFCD you can see that the tip of the case is nicely crimped into the cannelure, just like factory lake city ammo, hence the name. It's cheap insurance to know that if the bullet does back up from hitting a feed ramp, the bullet will be caught by the brass preventing it from going any further. My SHTF stash all have crimps.

HOWEVER, let me just say that I will NEVER use the LFCD on any bullet without cannelures OR any match grade hand loads. Lee says that you can even crimp non-cannelure bullets so I put it to the test. I ran it through the LFCD and then disassembled the round. What I found was that the LFCD puts very small indentations into the copper jacket wall because it has no cannelure. This can not be good for accuracy. HOWEVER, for plinking rounds, I doubt you can tell the difference. But for those of us that load for precision, we are anal about everything.

Also be aware that almost all match grade bullets do not have cannelures. I can not recommend this die unless you are crimping cannelure bullets.

Another issue that I want to bring up is run out. This is another reason why I would not use the LFCD for match grade stuff. For those that craft precision cartridges, you know how important run out is and everything that we do in handloading to reduce the amount of run out in our ammo. The neck area plays a huge role in run out. I can't stomach the idea of running cartridges that I perfected with .001" or less amount of run out through another die that squeezes the NECK. Once your ammo is good, you don't touch it! I haven't tested if it actually induces run out but I guess I have a project this coming weekend.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.


I forgot to mention, I DO NOT factory crimp any handgun cartridges only taper crimp. However, I do crimp rifle cartridges. I found that there was no need at all with pistol and a taper crimp closes the bell just perfect.

[Chief-7700]

Sounds like your a wheel gun loader, since .45ACP bullets do not have a cannelure. .45ACP uses a tamper crimp not a roll crimp
Chief

[Nessal]

Another thing to note is that I feel that a lot of people may be using the crimp die incorrectly. The biggest issue is that people apply WAYYYYY too much pressure. It's worthless if I told you how hard I push on the ram because everyone sense of strength is a bit different. But I would say that I put about 15lbs of torque on the ram for presses that DO NOT cam over. You have to know how to adjust your dies properly. That's probably one of the biggest game changers.

[Bill Steele]

Bill, I'm glad the Lee dies work for you. The one thing I love about Dillon die's is once the die body is set, I can drop the inserts out with the removal of a c-clip at the top. Clean out the crimp die or change the bullet profile in the seating die.
Chief

Chief

That is a super nice feature. Dillon stuff is so nice.

One of these days, maybe when I hit that lottery ticket, I will get me one of those 650XL's. But then, I wouldn't have an excuse to go down and spend hours in the garage as all my loading would be done in like 20 minutes or so.

[Tythagoras]

Nessal, you might be thinking of the LFCD for bottleneck cartridges, it's a very different beast, and works well for what it is supposed to do. I have one for .223 and I like it, though none of my recipes include crimps anymore.

The LFCD for straightwall cartridges is of much more debatable usefulness. I have one for 9mm, and it definitely sizes the completed cartridge, almost to the extractor groove. I couldn't figure out why, no matter how much crimp I give a 9mm, it always has setback problems when I chamber the same cartridge several times. When I stopped trying to crimp at all, the problem went away. The LFCD for the 9mm (or at least my copy) reduces neck tension, rather than increases it.

The reason can be seen when you resize brass. The first time through the sizer die, and the case mouth will almost always spring back about .002". The LFCD, by crimping the way it does, will squeeze the bullet and the brass the way a sizer would. The brass will spring back that little bit, and the bullet won't (or at least wont spring back as far, copper and lead are fairly malleable). This leaves the neck tension about .002" less than it would have been without the crimp.

I've gone to using as light an adjustment of the expander die that I can without damaging the bullet on seating (sometimes none at all for the more rounded-base bullets) and crimping just so it closes the belling, no more. I haven't tried any 9mm bullets with cannelures yet, so I don't have too much hands-on knowledge there.

That turned out to be a bit more than the one line quip I planned on posting.

[Tythagoras]

You have to know how to adjust your dies properly. That's probably one of the biggest game changers.

There's a fair amount of information on this subject that isn't common knowledge. I'm learning more almost every reloading session and range trip, and I've been at this for at least 8 years. (I don't remember exactly when I started, 2003, I think) In any case, we agree.

[Nessal]

Nessal, you might be thinking of the LFCD for bottleneck cartridges, it's a very different beast, and works well for what it is supposed to do. I have one for .223 and I like it, though none of my recipes include crimps anymore.

The LFCD for straightwall cartridges is of much more debatable usefulness. I have one for 9mm, and it definitely sizes the completed cartridge, almost to the extractor groove. I couldn't figure out why, no matter how much crimp I give a 9mm, it always has setback problems when I chamber the same cartridge several times. When I stopped trying to crimp at all, the problem went away. The LFCD for the 9mm (or at least my copy) reduces neck tension, rather than increases it.

The reason can be seen when you resize brass. The first time through the sizer die, and the case mouth will almost always spring back about .002". The LFCD, by crimping the way it does, will squeeze the bullet and the brass the way a sizer would. The brass will spring back that little bit, and the bullet won't (or at least wont spring back as far, copper and lead are fairly malleable). This leaves the neck tension about .002" less than it would have been without the crimp.

I've gone to using as light an adjustment of the expander die that I can without damaging the bullet on seating (sometimes none at all for the more rounded-base bullets) and crimping just so it closes the belling, no more. I haven't tried any 9mm bullets with cannelures yet, so I don't have too much hands-on knowledge there.

That turned out to be a bit more than the one line quip I planned on posting.

I suppose that could be the case. It wasn't specified so I went with the one that is most commonly used.

[SixPointEight]

Another poster mentioned the LFCD doesn't post size. This is both true and untrue. On a rifle die, the LFCD does not post size. On the pistol versions, it does post size.

What I find really interesting is the last time this came up, I mentioned that I use it when I load .40s&w. I made a note that it touches and "post sizes" every round I run through it. All the haters promptly jumped in to say I didn't have other things adjusted properly, and so I was "fixing my bad loading practices" with the LFCD. Just to humor them, I pulled out all my dies, re-adjusted them(even set my carbide sizer die with a little bit of cam, which you AREN'T supposed to do) and even then, the LFCD was touching every round.

Those people have yet to be able to tell me what I'm doing so wrong that the LFCD is sizing my rounds.

With that said, I don't NEED to use the LFCD. I can pull it out and my rounds load, chamber and fire just fine. But I run it just as a double check on the crimp and in case I have any "glock bellied" brass that got processed.

[XDRoX]

I suppose that could be the case. It wasn't specified so I went with the one that is most commonly used.

Actually it was specified. The title of the post was 3 die vs 4 die set. From the title it should have been obvious that the OP was asking a question about pistol dies. Everyone in this thread is talking about the LFCD that comes as the 4th die in their sets.

I've actually used the rifle one that you're referring to sometimes for 223. I didn't like it much and bought a Dillon one that works much better. It's the first product by Lee that I didn't have good luck with, maybe I just got a bad one.

But back on topic. I can load 9mm rounds that are reliable, accurate, and function fine in any of my seven 9mm's with the Lee 3 die set. If someone can not do this without a LFCD then I have to assume that they are doing something wrong.

The LFCD is a solution to a problem that never existed. It hides mistakes and decreases accuracy.

[760practicalshooter]

Actually it was specified. The title of the post was 3 die vs 4 die set. From the title it should have been obvious that the OP was asking a question about pistol dies. Everyone in this thread is talking about the LFCD that comes as the 4th die in their sets.

I've actually used the rifle one that you're referring to sometimes for 223. I didn't like it much and bought a Dillon one that works much better. It's the first product by Lee that I didn't have good luck with, maybe I just got a bad one.

But back on topic. I can load 9mm rounds that are reliable, accurate, and function fine in any of my seven 9mm's with the Lee 3 die set. If someone can not do this without a LFCD then I have to assume that they are doing something wrong.

The LFCD is a solution to a problem that never existed. It hides mistakes and decreases accuracy.

This seems to answer what I was looking for.

Thanks.

[mousegun]

Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Have 'em both for rifle and revolver reloading.

The rifle LFCD allows me to bell the mouth of a bottleneck cartridge so the mouth won't shave or muck up cast and paper patch boolit loads. The LFCD removes the belling nicely without having to use a roll or taper crimp die.

The pistol die is another bag of worms. I need to shoot .432 diameter boolits in my bores to get reasonable accuracy. The pistol LFCD in sizing the case was reducing the boolit diameter to .429. No bueno. Sent the die back to Lee and they opened the carbide ring up three thousanths. Now I get .431-.432 diameters allatime.

[SixPointEight]

Lee Factory Crimp Die.

Have 'em both for rifle and revolver reloading.

The rifle LFCD allows me to bell the mouth of a bottleneck cartridge so the mouth won't shave or muck up cast and paper patch boolit loads. The LFCD removes the belling nicely without having to use a roll or taper crimp die.

The pistol die is another bag of worms. I need to shoot .432 diameter boolits in my bores to get reasonable accuracy. The pistol LFCD in sizing the case was reducing the boolit diameter to .429. No bueno. Sent the die back to Lee and they opened the carbide ring up three thousanths. Now I get .431-.432 diameters allatime.

I think that would be the powder through expander die..

[mousegun]

I think that would be the powder through expander die..

Nope.

In this case it can be the Lee Universal expanding die


or a Lyman M die (caliber specific).

[mnguyen84]

yeah. you're right. you can calm down now.

What? The 3 die set comes with an expander as well. Have you even read any of the replies in this thread? The difference is the 4 die set comes with the LFCD.

[SixPointEight]

Nope.

In this case it can be the Lee Universal expanding die


or a Lyman M die (caliber specific).

Okay, my friend. In your post you said the LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE allows you to expand the necks. It doesn't. It does the opposite. If you're saying you can't use an expander die, without using a factory crimp die to close the neck afterward, you're just flat wrong.

/Fail