Why are other brand dies so much more expensive than Lee?

[mif_slim]

My theory is, if a higher price die can make my ammo shoot sub-sub-sub moa then i'll buy it but if cheap-o lee can make me shoot sub-moa then im happy to spend extra cash on components.

[Cowboy T]

Crimping while seating the bullet is a very rude thing to do to the bullet. The bullet is still being pushed into the case as you are pushing the case mouth into the bullet. At best you are scratching the bullet jacket, at worst you are gouging it and shaving some copper back.

A roll crimp can be done this way without too much extra damage (the roll crimp always creases the jacket anyway), but as mentioned above, it is a very rude process. Taper crimping cannot be properly done in the seater die. Straight-wall semi-auto pistol cases must be taper crimped, end of story on that.

I have to disagree on that point. I use a combination seating/crimping die with cast boolits all the time and have found no difference in precision of the load, at least for revolver rounds, from seating and crimping separately. No shaving of the boolit takes place (I'd see it on the outside), and the round looks and shoots great.

The problem may be that some folks aren't adjusting their combo seating/crimping die properly. This would be understandable, since it is the most complex of the dies to adjust properly. I've got a video series on specifically how to do that (it's on my Web site for free download), if it might help someone.

[SixPointEight]

I have to disagree on that point. I use a combination seating/crimping die with cast boolits all the time and have found no difference in precision of the load, at least for revolver rounds, from seating and crimping separately. No shaving of the boolit takes place (I'd see it on the outside), and the round looks and shoots great.

The problem may be that some folks aren't adjusting their combo seating/crimping die properly. This would be understandable, since it is the most complex of the dies to adjust properly. I've got a video series on specifically how to do that (it's on my Web site for free download), if it might help someone.

Or if you're like me and you forget that you need uniform case lengths to crimp while seating.

I was getting some with no crimp, and others with buckled case mouths.

[GeoffLinder]

I have to disagree on that point. I use a combination seating/crimping die with cast boolits all the time and have found no difference in precision of the load, at least for revolver rounds, from seating and crimping separately. No shaving of the boolit takes place (I'd see it on the outside), and the round looks and shoots great.

The problem may be that some folks aren't adjusting their combo seating/crimping die properly. This would be understandable, since it is the most complex of the dies to adjust properly. I've got a video series on specifically how to do that (it's on my Web site for free download), if it might help someone.

The tradition of crimping is best reserved for un-jacketed projectiles as a little deformation of the lead is not a big thing in the way they fly in most cases.

Jacketed bullets (especially at velocities beyond what lead is typically pushed to) are more inclined to fly poorly when their outer covering is mangled, especially if you are trying for 50+ yard accuracy.

I still crimp in the seater die for my cast lead .44 magnum target style loads just because it's faster and there are no downrange downsides from slightly imperfect lead projectiles.

Anything jacketed (rifle & pistol) always gets crimped as a separate step.

[GeoffLinder]

Or if you're like me and you forget that you need uniform case lengths to crimp while seating.

I was getting some with no crimp, and others with buckled case mouths.

Oh yeah, then there's that

Case length is an issue to consider no matter where you crimp. But this is mostly a problem with roll crimps, a taper crimp ain't gonna' be much different when the case lengths vary a little.

[Someguy925]

Have you ever used lee dies? Or are you pulling this out of...space

I'm just expressing my experience with the seater dies. No complaints with their other Lee dies though.

[sacto929]

Thanks you all for the information and discussion.

Sacto929 - I've got two die manufacturers in the shop. Dillon and Redding. The best just cost more. That's not being snobby or overly simple (okay...maybe it is), but the best are the best and they cost more. My 1050 in 38 Super, has loaded over 80k, no variation on the dies and their performance. The 1050 in 40, has loaded over 30k. The 650, between 38 Super (steel), 9mm, 223 and 45 has loaded over 100k rounds. My Redding dies are used for my bolt rifles (and now 38 Super for Bianchi Cup) and are all their full length, Competition Seating Dies.

Did the cheap route when I started 'cause that's what I could afford at the time. They did fine (I used RCBS dies as everything Lee always feels cheap) but when I started taking shooting serious and my ammo serious, I bought the best.

Just my opinion though.

Rich

This is a great segway into my next question: What about the other die manufacturers, RCBS, Redding, Hornady, etc.? Most of what I read is centered upon discussion of Dillon vs Lee, as I assume, they are the largest players in the market. Are there other options that aren't as "cheap" as Lee but not as pricey as Dillon that will provide the value I seek?

The value I seek is the ability to get started on multiple calibers without breaking the bank. The way I am currently looking at it is that, for each caliber, if I can get dies, tooling change equipment and 100 bullets for less than the cost of 1000 rounds of factory, I will go with the reload route. If not, I'll stock up on the factory for now, in that caliber.

ETA: If y'all would like to see/compare some dies, just say the word as I assume you're in Sac.

Used to be, but still close enough. I'll drop you a PM to arrange a look see. Thanks!

[BigBronco]

Wheel guns get a roll crimp. Because the cartridge will seat in the cylinder against the case rim. It is not a problem to crimp most of the time with the seating die since the bullet will usually have a canalure in the position of the crimp. As the edge of the brass rolls in toward the bullet the canalure keeps the brass from being gouged as the bullet simultaneously seeps moving forward in the process. Now since semi auto's seat in the chamber against the front edge of the brass a roll crimp will not seat properly and a taper or factory crimp must be used. This should be done after the seating process is finished and the bullet has stopped traveling to it's final seat length.

Not from a book. I learned this many moons ago. The hard way.

Back to the original thread. Never used Lee dies. Started with RCBS and they seem to do the job. I know there is better as an old friend gave me a Lyman TC carbide sizer in .357 and it was way better than the RCBS carbide sizer. In fact after 25 years I still use it.

[uscbigdawg]

When it comes to rifle calibers, and wanting precision, for me, Redding is the best (without going into arbor press dies, etc.). I've used (and still occasionally use) RCBS dies when I started as they were cheaper and still of good quality. Plus, being a California company, figured I'd try and keep the $$$ "local". Hornady, never heard anything bad, just never used them.

I think you'll find "Dillon vs. Lee" a lot as they are the ends of the spectrum (for many) on the progressive press market. Again, when starting out, on a tight budget, I considered getting the Pro 1000 from Lee as it seemed to do everything at a ton cheaper. Worked with a friend that had one and it was okay. Visited a buddy in Arizona and used his 1050 and then we went to Dillon Precision and checked out all the machines.

I'm not some mega machinist/industrial engineer (although I have an engineering degree), but I do know what quality and strength feel like, add to that Dillon's No B.S. Warranty, support of the shooting sports and that I don't know of a single top shooter that doesn't load on a Dillon, and that's how I was sold to buy my first 1050 in '98. 13 years later, that press is still on the bench, dies, measure, etc. have yet to be adjusted (other than some tweaking to the powder charge that I did when they reduced the power factor in USPSA from 175 to 165).

All that aside, in the end, I think better gear over the long term just performs better (greater consistency, durability, etc.). As for Lee dies on a Dillon, a lot of guys use Lee's sizing die for "Glock'ed" brass. I don't have that need and have never needed to since my gunsmith knows how to chamber a barrel and I roll size every piece of brass anyways in my CasePro (to include new brass since they are often out of spec).

Hope that helps and no problem on swingin' by and answering any questions y'all have.

Rich

[bumpo628]

Thanks you all for the information and discussion.
The value I seek is the ability to get started on multiple calibers without breaking the bank. The way I am currently looking at it is that, for each caliber, if I can get dies, tooling change equipment and 100 bullets for less than the cost of 1000 rounds of factory, I will go with the reload route. If not, I'll stock up on the factory for now, in that caliber.

Lee dies are so cheap that you have nothing to lose by buying a set and trying them out for yourself. Either you will find that they are fine and the extra $ is not necessary or you will find out why they are so cheap.

/I use Lee dies

[SanPedroShooter]

I am new to reloading however, i am very satisfied with all my Lee tools. It was the most affordable way to start reloading. Also. i have been putting a very light crimp on my 30-06 loads, just enough to keep the bullet in place when pressed on. I have used the seating die and have had good results. Why would a roll crimp not seat properly on bottle necked cartridge if it was not overdone? I have slightly buckled a few cases by trying to over crimp, but cant see how a crimp would affect seating in the chamber.
Edit* after a bit of reading, i could see how a cartrdge that headspaces on the rim/mouth could be affected by a roll crimp. I am assuming that the round would stop on the crimp and not the rim?

[Bill Steele]

When I re-started reloading it has been solely for handgun calibers. My old RCBS dies were all rifle calibers (in calibers for rifle's I no longer own, great).

I needed new dies and bought the 4 die carbide sets from Lee. I have only gotten a few thousand rounds loaded so far (it is slow going on a single stage press), so I cannot speak to long term reliability on these dies, but looking at them right now, I would say they will likely hold up for many tens of thousands of rounds.

I have been extremely pleased with the performance of my Lee dies. The seat die remains extremely accurate on the OAL from round to round, the "Factory Crimp Die" makes it very easy to get a perfect crimp and while it is an extra step, doesn't take long to setup, so I would say it is well worth it.

I am planning on moving to a progressive setup soon and the single stage will be relegated back to occasional rifle and other misc. duties. Whatever progressive press I end up with, I will continue to use my Lee dies as they work great.

As far as payback on investments, in the calibers I am shooting at the rate I am shooting (200-300/week), I save enough to pay for a Dillon setup (including Dillon dies) in about one year. What other investment gives you that kind of return?

[xrMike]

Lee rifle dies are perfectly capable of producing sub-MOA ammo, assuming you are in control of all the other variables too.

For pistol, the Lee-versus-others debate matters even less. Hardly anybody can shoot so well with a pistol that their die selection is what's preventing them from shooting smaller groups.

[SixPointEight]

Lee rifle dies are perfectly capable of producing sub-MOA ammo, assuming you are in control of all the other variables too.

For pistol, the Lee-versus-others debate matters even less. Hardly anybody can shoot so well with a pistol that their die selection is what's preventing them from shooting smaller groups.

Many many many bench rest shooters utilize a lee collet neck sizing die when they set records.

My lee hand press produced .000-.001 runout in my .308 rounds. My bullet seating depths are within +/- .001 .

Don't know about you, but at that point, I'm calling that excellent ammo.

[xrMike]

Many many many bench rest shooters utilize a lee collet neck sizing die when they set records.

My lee hand press produced .000-.001 runout in my .308 rounds. My bullet seating depths are within +/- .001 .

Don't know about you, but at that point, I'm calling that excellent ammo.

Yep, don't remember his name, but the world long distance shooting record was held for a number of years by a guy who only used a Lee collet die...

My .223 Lee dies make ammo that shoots 10-round sub-MOA groups from my AR, with irons!, when I'm having a particularly good day (sharp eyesight, well-rested, and not too many beers the night before... )

I have since switched to Redding sizing and competition seating dies for .223, trying to see if I can squeeze a little more accuracy out of my process. I honestly don't think I'm a good enough shot to where the dies will make any difference, but what the heck, might as well give that a try.

I'll always use Lee dies for .45ACP. No point in spending extra money when the ammo I'm making now is already way more accurate than I am.