bullets loose in neck, help?

[jr916]

I attempted my first reload for 7.62x54R tonight with my Lee Classic Loader using once fired Winchester brass, Win LR primers, Varget, and two different bullet types.

First recipe was with the .308" 125gr bullets and 51gr Varget... after depriming, resizing the neck, repriming, and adding the powder charge, I attempted to seat the bullet. After resistance on the first few taps, the bullet just fell though the neck (not all the way, but was very loose in the neck). I could just pull the bullet out of the case without having to twist it or anything.

No problem, I'm thinking, Lee has simply recognized the folly of making their 7.62x54R dies standard for a .308" bullet, and I'm being overly cautious for trying these .308" projectiles when in fact Lee has changed their kits in this caliber to use .311" bullets standard.

So I yank a couple 180 gr FMJBTs from some Yugo surplus, and set the bullet depth so that it'll seat right down to the cannelure (I figure it's a little wider so it'll seat tighter but the boat tail will not make it collapse the case). I prepare and prime a few more cases, and after looking up the appropriate charge (43gr), I load the Varget and try to seat the new bullet. At first it seemed snug, but after crimping, I can pretty easily grab the bullet and wiggle it around. It wouldn't easily budge further in or out of the case like the .308" bullet would, however it will jiggle loosely around the cannelure (and I can spin the bullet in the case).

What would I be doing wrong for this to happen, and what can I do to remedy this issue? I'm driving the case all the way flush with the tool when resizing the neck, so why won't these surplus bullets, which are supposedly .001"-.002" wider than this kit is made for, seat tightly?

Also, how do I determine seating depth? Should I seat up to the cannelure on all bullets that have one? I know if the COL is too great, the loads won't fit in mags, or bullets may not chamber or may touch the rifling. Some of my bullets have cannelures, but the 125gr .308" ones do not... so how deep to seat them? (I need to remedy the "loose bullet in case" issue before worrying about how far to seat these ones)

[rulas41]

i had this same problem. my rcbs set came with two expanders one for 308 the other for 311. for 308 bullets use smaller expander for 311 use bigger one. just remember to use right one. for the ones that are to loose you need to resize the neck. first change expander ball, remove primer pin so you dont lose primer, next lube them and run them though the die like normal and try again.
good luck hit me up if you need more help

[ar15barrels]

I attempted my first reload for 7.62x54R tonight with my Lee Classic Loader using once fired Winchester brass, Win LR primers, Varget, and two different bullet types.

First recipe was with the .308" 125gr bullets and 51gr Varget... after depriming, resizing the neck, repriming, and adding the powder charge, I attempted to seat the bullet. After resistance on the first few taps, the bullet just fell though the neck (not all the way, but was very loose in the neck). I could just pull the bullet out of the case without having to twist it or anything.

No problem, I'm thinking, Lee has simply recognized the folly of making their 7.62x54R dies standard for a .308" bullet, and I'm being overly cautious for trying these .308" projectiles when in fact Lee has changed their kits in this caliber to use .311" bullets standard.

So I yank a couple 180 gr FMJBTs from some Yugo surplus, and set the bullet depth so that it'll seat right down to the cannelure (I figure it's a little wider so it'll seat tighter but the boat tail will not make it collapse the case). I prepare and prime a few more cases, and after looking up the appropriate charge (43gr), I load the Varget and try to seat the new bullet. At first it seemed snug, but after crimping, I can pretty easily grab the bullet and wiggle it around. It wouldn't easily budge further in or out of the case like the .308" bullet would, however it will jiggle loosely around the cannelure (and I can spin the bullet in the case).

What would I be doing wrong for this to happen, and what can I do to remedy this issue? I'm driving the case all the way flush with the tool when resizing the neck, so why won't these surplus bullets, which are supposedly .001"-.002" wider than this kit is made for, seat tightly?

Also, how do I determine seating depth? Should I seat up to the cannelure on all bullets that have one? I know if the COL is too great, the loads won't fit in mags, or bullets may not chamber or may touch the rifling. Some of my bullets have cannelures, but the 125gr .308" ones do not... so how deep to seat them? (I need to remedy the "loose bullet in case" issue before worrying about how far to seat these ones)

It sounds like the case trim length is not compatible with the crimp die.
If you over-crimp the case mouth into the cannelure, the neck gets loose and the bullet spins.

Get a proper press and proper dies and you will have a lot more control of the sizing and crimping.

[buffybuster]

It sounds like the case trim length is not compatible with the crimp die.
If you over-crimp the case mouth into the cannelure, the neck gets loose and the bullet spins.

Get a proper press and proper dies and you will have a lot more control of the sizing and crimping.

+1

Apply just enough crimp to push the lip of the mouth barely into the crimp groove. The crimp is not suppose to hold the bullet, neck tension does that. Too much crimp is counterproductive and reduces neck tension.


Also get a REAL reloading press and proper dies.

[gunboat]

If the bullet gets loose when you crimp - don't crimp - Neck tension should be enough. As others said your case may be a mite long. Overall length can vary with each bullet nose shape -- sharper nose going further into bore and still having to fit into the magazine -- make a dummy round for each bullet you are trying to use, let it touch the lands, then seat it slightly deeper, still being mindful of the magazine length limit.
I must agree with others, I think you need a set of dies that are bit more adjustable. Your dies are ok, but just not very flexible for the different bullet lengths and diameters you are trying to use.
You also need, at least, a vernier caliper to measure with. A micrometer and verniers would be best but you can get by with verniers. check out your local harbor freight for a moderate priced set - do not bother with cheap plastic ones.
I appreciate that money is tight but for what you are trying to do, the minimum set up should be a lee hand press or smallest single stage press and standard die set. You can sometimes even find them used when others move on to more elaborate set ups.
You NEED, dies to size and expand , and to seat primer, A method of lubing case. A die to seat bullet. A scale to measure powder charge, funnel to drop charge into case. A rag and bit of solvent to remove lube from case. A vernier for measurements. A small knife or deburr tool, to remove any burrs at case mouth or primer hole. AND you NEED a reloading manual - not just a recipe book. Everything else just makes the job faster and easier. My ha-penny

[jr916]

I must agree with others, I think you need a set of dies that are bit more adjustable. Your dies are ok, but just not very flexible for the different bullet lengths and diameters you are trying to use.

...AND you NEED a reloading manual - not just a recipe book. Everything else just makes the job faster and easier. My ha-penny

For the record, I'm not trying to make handloads with a bunch of different bullet diameters, but rather I bought a few different diameters to see which one would be easiest to load (for practice). My purpose for reloading is mostly just to get some lead-free hunting ammo for use on pig/deer/coyote, and I don't need much of it, so my final goal is still very small-scale (and I hear testimony that my cheap, PITA Lee Classic Loader can produce very accurate loads when using a scale for powder).

So I know I should get a single stage and dies, and a case trimmer so I can use brass more than a few times etc etc, however I'm not worrying about that until this summer when I have the time and money to get the equipment and load a higher volume of rounds. I may even wait until later in the fall to get set up, as surplus rounds are CHEAP for my caliber and I'd really only be reloading in large volumes to combat the fact that I can't get ammo online anymore.

Thanks for all the advice, gunboat, you've been a big help with all my research on reloading for my Mosin. ..When I make my dummy rounds, do I just barely seat the bullet so that it gets pushed back by the lands in my bore when I chamber it, but still use a case with a resized neck?

I'm getting a Lee Reloading Manual from the gun shop nearby, it's on the way but he hasn't called me to say it's arrived. I'm just doing some initial attempts and familiarizing myself with the process, but I will read the book before making many loads and before using any at the range.

[ar15barrels]

When I make my dummy rounds, do I just barely seat the bullet so that it gets pushed back by the lands in my bore when I chamber it

No, you want the bullet seated deep enough that it does not contact the lands in the chamber.
Published load data is always developed with the bullet OFF the lands.

[jr916]

I am seating my .310" hornadys just fine now, I was hitting too hard with my mallet when crimping before... a tiny light tap or no crimp and the neck tension is fine. About seating depth... these .310" 123-grainers are short, so should I seat them to the cannelure or can I seat them more shallow than that? What's the general guideline for minimum seating depth? (I've read that it should be at least the caliber's depth, but that seems like a lot for a small bullet)

[jr916]

No, you want the bullet seated deep enough that it does not contact the lands in the chamber.
Published load data is always developed with the bullet OFF the lands.

I know, I mean for the dummy round gunboat mentioned... to gauge my max. COL for my rifle. I'll seat the bullets slightly deeper so they aren't touching for the real loads I'm gonna shoot, but for the dummy round, do I still resize a case neck and just barely seat the bullet before chambering it measure max COL?

PS- The first .310" bullet I seated was in a case w/o powder. I pulled the bullet with a kinetic puller... so do I need to resize the neck again before adding powder and re-seating the bullet? Or since it's the same bullet do I not have to resize the neck again? On a separate note, how low can you generally go on powder charges for light-recoil plinking loads while remaining within the required amount of charge to drive the bullet out (for H4895 it's 60% charge recommended, but it seems to be powder-dependant, so should I call/email Hodgdon)?

[scrat]

Please disregard everything that everyone has written.

Guys he is using a Lee Loader.

There is no expander die.

same time the

It sounds like the case trim length is not compatible with the crimp die.
If you over-crimp the case mouth into the cannelure, the neck gets loose and the bullet spins

Nope nope nope.


did anyone miss the lee loader the die has the crimp on the same die.


Your problem is several
1 very thin metal.
2. not tapping the shell in far enough
3. need to use the correct size bullet
4. may need to full length size the shells in a press

This is the problems with a lee loader. i have used a lee loader for years. Seems as though the bottle type shells give you the main problem. then i switched to cast bullets and the larger bullet solved the problem. so its an inherint problem with the lee loader that only neck sizes the shell. Where a full length resize usually will fix.

[jr916]

Yeah, I did disregard a few of the responses because they assumed I was using a press.

Anyways, I think the problem was a combo of not having the right bullet size and my bad technique in using the Lee Loader. The first two bullets I tried (the 180gr FMJBT from surplus, and the .308" 125gr Noslers) both had boat tails, so that may have contributed to the issue also. Now that I'm using the flat-based .310" 125gr hornady JSPs, and I've gotten the technique down a little better (how much to tap, etc), the bullets are seating just fine even when I crimp them slightly. Thanks for the help, I'm having way too much fun handloading these!

PS- even though the problem seems to have been fixed, I'm going to buy a Lee case trimmer ASAP so I can re-use the brass more times and b/c I'll need it when I get a press, anyway.

[ar15barrels]

I know, I mean for the dummy round gunboat mentioned... to gauge my max. COL for my rifle.

I would not use a dummy cartridge to determine max seating length.
Get a wooden dowel that's longer than your barrel and will fit within the barrel.
Close the bolt with an empty chamber.
Drop the dowel down the barrel.
Make a pencil mark at the muzzle.
Open the bolt, drop JUST a bullet into the chamber and press it all the way up into the throat with a pencil or some other piece of dowel.
HOLD it there and slide the long dowel down the barrel again until it just touches the tip of the bullet.
Make another mark on the dowel at the muzzle.

Measure the distance between the two marks on the long dowel and THAT is your max seating length.
You may find that the max seating length is MUCH longer than you can actually attain with the bullet seated into the neck.
If that's the case, then check the max length of the rifle's magazine.
Make sure rounds are seated short enough to fit into the magazine and with 1 caliber's worth of bullet length into the neck.

[scrat]

you can use a dummy round to determine COL. this has been discussed before. take a case that has been fired from your rifle. do not size it. press in a bullet a little long. then chamber it in your rifle the rifle will seat the bullet the rest of the way. then remove the cartridge. measure this is the max overall length for that given bullet. different bullets will have a different ogave curvature. Best methods are to reduce the length by around .03 to give you the best overall case overall length with that bullet.

[jr916]

Thanks. Do I need to follow the rule several ppl have mentioned of seating at least a caliber's worth of the bullet into the neck? With my .310" Hornadys (meant for AK/SKS), this seems like more than half the bullet would be in the neck. If I seat these bullets up to the cannelure, there is NOT a caliber's worth of the bullet (.308"-.311") in the neck.

[scrat]

No seat it long with the cannelure sticking way out loose. when you go to chamber the gun it will seat the bullet. then slowly eject the bullet measure then seat another .03 and your good to go. you should do this when ever you change bullets. if not then go with SAMMI specs. which you look in a book and go with the max published length for your round. to fit any gun. What you are doing when you seat the bullet with the gun is you are customizing the ammo to your gun. just like using once fired shells from your gun