Help a Noob

[Noah]

Hey all, I need just a little guidance.
I have made the jump into reloading and have purchased everything I need and am just getting started and have a couple of questions about "working up" a load that my manual doesn't really seem to explain very well.

I am loading 308. I have once fired brass from PRVI PARTIZAN 168g bthp match ammo. I also have once fired brass from LITHUANIAN 7.62x51 146g fmj rounds. I have some reloader-15. Wolf primers as well as some CCI match primers. I have SMK 168s and some SGK 165s. I have RCBS full length x-die for sizing and a Foster bench rest seater die.

I feel pretty confident in my press and die setup. I have already trimmed, cleaned, resized, and recleaned 50 pieces of both types of brass. I have seated two bullets in empty cases to test cycle in the rifle. I am feeling pretty confident that I have most everything figured out. However I am finally ready to prime, load and seat and... finally my questions... sorry.

1) when working up in powder what increments should I go in. I have seen several different things recomended on the web and nothing mentioned in my manual. I don't want to waste materials but I want to be safe and find an accurate load.
2) how many rounds do I need to make at each powder increment to give a large enough sample of that load to insure that the round is not going to be over pressure and verify its performance.
3) my rifle is zeroed at 200m and I usually shoot at 200. what is the best range to test loads at. (should I go down to 100?)
4) also any pointers on the difference in the Win brass vs the Nato stuff. I read that the Nato stuff will have a little smaller volume & higher pressure, but don't really know if I need to start at a lower charge than the manuals recomended minimum or not. or if there are any other concerns.

Any other pointers at all would also be greatly appriciated.

Thanks Calgunners,
Noah

PS I almost forgot the rifle... These will be fired from a Fulton Armory Titan with a 20" ss heavy barrel. (which is grouping quite nicely with the PRVI ammo, hope I can make some better stuff for less $) I shoot from 100 to 500 meters until I find a longer range.

CG rules!

[Milsurp Collector]

I don't know which manual you are using, but the Hornady manual lists several charges for each bullet/powder combination, with approx. velocity for each charge in 100 fps increments . So one way to do it is to make up 10 rounds at the lowest velocity charge listed, then 10 at the next highest, and so on. Obviously check each group of fired brass for signs of overpressure before going to the next higher charge/velocity



I tend to stay with lighter loads/lower velocity for less use of powder, less recoil, and less wear on the brass, and adjust my sights accordingly.

[Jak1]

Where are you located in Nor Cal?

[Noah]

Where are you located in Nor Cal?

Butte County

[Noah]

MC,
Thanks for the advice.
OK so 10 loads at each increment. and I have a lyman book and it only lists a min & max load, no increments like your book. Maybe I will have to get a better manual.
Also, great pic.... Thank You very much!

[Milsurp Collector]

For example (for illustrative purposes only, not for actual use) for 308 Winchester, 165-168 grain Hornady bullets, for Reloader-15 my Hornady 7th ed. manual lists

2100 fps 35.2 gr
2200 fps 37.0 gr
2300 fps 38.8 gr and so on up to 2600 fps 44.3 gr maximum. Again, for illustrative purposes only because those loads are for Hornady bullets.

[joelogic]

.223 is cheaper to reload but I load 20 rounds at .5 gr increments. Luckily you only have to does this once.

[tamalpias]

.223 is cheaper to reload but I load 20 rounds at .5 gr increments. Luckily you only have to does this once.

i do incremental loads like you at .5 gr. but only load 10 rounds at each increment so i can get 2 five shot groups. Usually 1 of the following will happen:
1) I will hit a charge that displays over pressure signs and stop.
2) I hit a load that gives me a tight group and the groups start opening up as the charge gets higher.
3) I hit max load and find no acceptable groups so i switch powder or bullet type.

[popeye4]

There's another way and I can't recall the name of it, but here it is in a nutshell:

Load up about 20-25 rounds (enough to cover the range of loads), keeping everything identical except for the powder charge. Start at the min load and increment up a uniform amount (I use 0.3 grains for .308) for each round. You'll then have 20-25 rounds that increase uniformly. Then go shoot them all without changing your sights (watch for pressure signs on the high end and stop if you see any). Plot each hit. You will notice a fairly consistent change of point of impact until you hit a "sweet spot" where several rounds will hit closely. Keep going and the previous pattern will re-emerge. Identify the powder charge range of the "sweet spot" and load up some confirmatory rounds. If you find one, you now have a load that is relatively insensitive to minor powder charge variations.

You won't find a "sweet spot" for every powder, but try a couple and you'll find something that works. It won't necessarily transfer to another gun. It also won't be the hottest load, but it will allow you to use powder dispensers without having to trickle powder.

I've seen someone's name associated with this technique in Zediker's book, but I can't recall it right now...... (senior moment).

I've had really good luck with Vihtavuori N135 and N140 in the .308 using 167 gr. Lapua Scenars and 168 gr. Sierra MKs.

BTW, check out this link for .308 loading info:http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf

This is a good one concerning once-fired brass: http://www.zediker.com/downloads/oncefired.pdf

[Noah]

joelogic, tamalpias, popeye4, Thank You guys for the help!!!
I think I may try the method that you described popeye4, just to help me learn and see the difference all the powder charges make on a single target. Then move to a shooting groups with some more samples. also those zediker links are full of info Thanks! Mostly M1a specific on the 308 one, but much applies to other rifles and is very useful.

Anyone, have any input on the other questions... #3 & #4?
I did finally find this in my lyman manual in regard to #4
Quote from Lyman 49th edition "Shooters reloading military should also stay one to two grains below the maximum charges"

[22popnsplat]

popeye is using the ladder approach , I myself would load 6 rounds at each weight and shoot 3 shot groups and move up in .5 increments . I use the 3 shot groups to test the load , When i find the best of those i load 10 rounds of it along with 10 -.2 and 10+.2 and then with the best of those i start working on seating depth.

[Noah]

So itsounds like .3g increments may be overkill for me. I am not looking to create the perfect benchrest round. I just want to get better than factory match ammo and save some money.
As for seating depth I believe that I am limited to the 2.810 limit as this will be fired from my AR.

This is what I have made up this mourning.
The loads are as follows
- Prvi Partizan brass resized in a RCBS x-die. Per instructions I trimmed each case to 1.995 and after sizing they are comming out consistanly at 2.000.
- cci br2 primers
- r-15 powder incrementing from 41 - 41.3 - 41.6 - 41.9 and so on up to 44.6 (lyman 49th states 44.8 as max)
- 168g SMK seated to 2.800
I ony loaded 2 rounds with each powder increment. Hopefully I can get some useful results from this. If not I will have to do this over with 3 or 4 rounds per charge.

Also does anyone have any input on my other questions.

Thanks again everyone. I will update with some pics from the range after I shoot these loads.

[popeye4]

Ladder method is one way it is described, but Zediker actually attributed its development to a specific individual. I'll go back and see if I can find the reference. I use the technique to get close to a charge range, then fine tune/confirm once I'm there. It shortens the development time and also helps cull out powders that are just too finicky for loading in bulk.

Regarding your other questions:

I'd test the rounds at the range you want to shoot at (if you can). Some longer range bullets/loads don't stabilize until they get out there a bit, and some short range bullets will be fine at 100 yds and start to deteriorate at longer ranges.

Regarding brass capacities: the Lake City brass (in .308) is known for being thicker, harder, and having slightly less capacity than commercial brass. The Winchester NATO brass I have (different from commercial) also is heavier than the standard commercial. You can get an idea of how much capacity the case has by weighing one empty and then full of water. Subtract the empty weight and you have the capacity in grains of water (a fairly standard unit of measure).

The Zediker material is targeted towards the M14 as that rifle was used for years in competition. The .308 AR types haven't been used in competition very much (Tubb did win a National Championship with an SR-25 a few years back) and there isn't that much info on how they treat brass (the M14 is a brass monster). Keep an eye out for case stretching (thinning of the case wall at the base, can be detected using a bent paper clip). I don't have his latest AR book, but it might have more big bore AR info in it than the orignal did.

[xrMike]

I ony loaded 2 rounds with each powder increment. Hopefully I can get some useful results from this. If not I will have to do this over with 3 or 4 rounds per charge.

Also does anyone have any input on my other questions.

2 rounds per powder increment is not enough, imo.

You should load/shoot at least 5 and preferably 10 rounds at each powder weight (statistically, you need at LEAST 5 rounds per group to start getting decent data).

I would also bump it up to .5 grain increments (instead of .3). That should give you enough spread to show trends.

Don't take this personal, but 2 rounds each at .3 increments is not going to tell you much of anything. I would start over. Don't cheap out on components or rounds now. What you're doing here will affect your use and enjoyment of the rifle for as long as you own it (or at least that barrel).

[pdq_wizzard]

3) my rifle is zeroed at 200m and I usually shoot at 200. what is the best range to test loads at. (should I go down to 100?)
4) also any pointers on the difference in the Win brass vs the Nato stuff. I read that the Nato stuff will have a little smaller volume & higher pressure, but don't really know if I need to start at a lower charge than the manuals recomended minimum or not. or if there are any other concerns.

I would use 100 yards to work on loads (to start with)

as for NATO just start at the very low end, not below (you might / may get more pressure when under loading) the problem is the powder doesn't burn at the right speed because there is too much space in the case.