Reloading for .38 SPL

[Supersapper]

Hi calgunners,

I just started reloading for .38 Special because I picked up a small .38 revolver. Figured I've reloaded 9mm for quite a while, so I there shouldn't be too many issues, but I had an unusual thing come up. When I chrono'd the loads I got about half of the rounds coming up about 550-600 fps, which is about what the books were saying, but the others came out at 60-70 fps. Here are the stats:

Pistol is a Rossi M88-2 2" .38 SPC only.

158 gr Berry's flat point pill at .357 diameter.
3.6 gr titegroup
1.145 COL
Data from Hodgdon website using 158 gr XTPs as the closest analogous round.

--Bullets were hand primed and since I only loaded 20 of them for testing, I hand measured the powder, so they were all 3.6.
--Scale was calibrated twice prior to and during measuring.
--I used a Lee single stage press with a Lee .38/.357 resizing die.

--Once the bullet was seated I used light crimping.

The strange thing was that some of the projectiles remained loose (I could easily twist or pull them out), but the chrono readings were inconsistent with the loose rounds (first low reading made me check which ones were loose and if this was directly related...it wasn't.

#1: Could the die not be sizing them narrow enough?
#2: Do I just need to make the crimping a little heavier?

Thanks for any input.

[hambam105]

158 grain bullet traveling at 60 to 70 feet per second? Or is that 60-70ps difference from 550-600 average fps?

If it's the latter....Plated bullet with Rossi 2 inch barrel QC...Acceptable.

Try a tame load using a real fmj or quality cast 158...I'd say those loads should be an improvement in velocity uniformity.

[Tommy Gun]

If they are coming up 50 to 60 FPS, your chrono isn't working right. I hate optical chronos for this reason. I hate all chronos for this reason. One day it works fine then take it out a few weeks later and it doesn't pick up anything or starts throwing out retarded data.

[bigbossman]

The strange thing was that some of the projectiles remained loose (I could easily twist or pull them out)....

Well, that needs to be addressed. Loose bullets in a revolver are not a good thing.

Do the bullets you're using have a cannelure? If not, there's your problem. Crimping these bullets compresses both the brass and the bullet, but the brass springs back a bit and the plated lead bullet doesn't - resulting in a loose bullet.

[ar15barrels]

When I chrono'd the loads I got about half of the rounds coming up about 550-600 fps, which is about what the books were saying, but the others came out at 60-70 fps.

If the bullets are actually doing 60-70fps, then the recoil will be less than 1/10 of what the 550-600fps loads were doing.
70fps in your revolver gets you 0.19 ft-lb of recoil while 600fps gets you 2.88ft-lb of recoil.
Did you feel the difference in recoil?

If you did not feel the difference, then you likely just have a chronograph read error and the bullet are likely going a similar speed to the other ones that the chronograph read correctly.

[JagerDog]

Well, that needs to be addressed. Loose bullets in a revolver are not a good thing.

Do the bullets you're using have a cannelure? If not, there's your problem. Crimping these bullets compresses both the brass and the bullet, but the brass springs back a bit and the plated lead bullet doesn't - resulting in a loose bullet.

If the bullets are actually doing 60-70fps, then the recoil will be less than 1/10 of what the 550-600fps loads were doing.
70fps in your revolver gets you 0.19 ft-lb of recoil while 600fps gets you 2.88ft-lb of recoil.
Did you feel the difference in recoil?

If you did not feel the difference, then you likely just have a chronograph read error and the bullet are likely going a similar speed to the other ones that the chronograph read correctly.

^^^^these.

I'd be surprised the 60-70 would leave the barrel to read at all.

[Supersapper]

If the bullets are actually doing 60-70fps, then the recoil will be less than 1/10 of what the 550-600fps loads were doing.
70fps in your revolver gets you 0.19 ft-lb of recoil while 600fps gets you 2.88ft-lb of recoil.
Did you feel the difference in recoil?

If you did not feel the difference, then you likely just have a chronograph read error and the bullet are likely going a similar speed to the other ones that the chronograph read correctly.

This is kind of what I thought as well. I did not feel much difference in recoil, between shots in either gun. Obviously, the model 19 I was using to test the first ones felt a bit different, but both guns were consistent. Obviously, the Rossi felt different because it's smaller and shorter, but they were consistent.

[ar15barrels]

I'd be surprised the 60-70 would leave the barrel to read at all.

It would have to be going much quicker and then slow down from bore friction.
If the charges are accurately measured as he said he was weighing charges, it's just not going to happen with titegroup.
Titegroup is tolerant of lots of air space in a case without having a problem with flashover ignition.
I seriously doubt 60-70 was an accurate chrono reading though.
Most likelihood is that they were full power and didn't read accurately.

[Supersapper]

Well, that needs to be addressed. Loose bullets in a revolver are not a good thing.

Do the bullets you're using have a cannelure? If not, there's your problem. Crimping these bullets compresses both the brass and the bullet, but the brass springs back a bit and the plated lead bullet doesn't - resulting in a loose bullet.

Agreed it's not a good thing. I just wasn't sure what could be causing it.

There is no cannelure. I'm wondering if the dies resize the casing to .358 and the bullets are .357...I can't see how it could be the other way around and I'm able to twist the bullet in the casing..

I did a small test with the Model 19 with 6 rounds the first time without crimping. I also did not have a chrono at that point, so the test was only to make sure they weren't too hot.

[Supersapper]

It would have to be going much quicker and then slow down from bore friction.
If the charges are accurately measured as he said he was weighing charges, it's just not going to happen with titegroup.
Titegroup is tolerant of lots of air space in a case without having a problem with flashover ignition.
I seriously doubt 60-70 was an accurate chrono reading though.
Most likelihood is that they were full power and didn't read accurately.

I'm beginning to believe the folks that are saying it might be a chrono issue, but it's never failed me like that before.

I'll have to start over. I know I hand measured the 3.6 grains, and with over half of them giving me fairly consistent readings at 550-600 fps.

[Supersapper]

^^^^these.

I'd be surprised the 60-70 would leave the barrel to read at all.

The first couple of times it happened, I actually started to think at that speed, I could almost see the bullet in the air, but the recoil seemed pretty consistent, so I'll have to start over with a new batch and maybe find another chrono.

I know my 9mm rounds are very consistent, so I'll probably test the chrono out with them since my 9s are all actually within about 25 fps of each other.

[Supersapper]

158 grain bullet traveling at 60 to 70 feet per second? Or is that 60-70ps difference from 550-600 average fps?

If it's the latter....Plated bullet with Rossi 2 inch barrel QC...Acceptable.

Try a tame load using a real fmj or quality cast 158...I'd say those loads should be an improvement in velocity uniformity.

It was actually only reading 50-70 fps. Not a range or difference from the last.

[bruce381]

to make sure you are sizing right and the bullets are big enough I have always when setting up first time I do this. after crimp take a finished round and push the bullet end against your work bench the bullet should NOT go in with moderate force if it does you dies are set wrong or wrong size as well as bullets are wrong size.

[Supersapper]

to make sure you are sizing right and the bullets are big enough I have always when setting up first time I do this. after crimp take a finished round and push the bullet end against your work bench the bullet should NOT go in with moderate force if it does you dies are set wrong or wrong size as well as bullets are wrong size.

That's basically what's happening in a nutshell. The projos can be twisted with light force in many cases and pushed or pulled with relative ease. Now to be clear...the projectiles say .357 on the box, so how could the dies be set up wrong?

[Snoopy47]

That's basically what's happening in a nutshell. The projos can be twisted with light force in many cases and pushed or pulled with relative ease. Now to be clear...the projectiles say .357 on the box, so how could the dies be set up wrong?

I am doing the exact same thing, putting a snub nose 38 on my CCW, and reloading a bunch of practice rounds.

Your bullets being lose are twisting is the #1 problem I've worked to flush out.

I'm finding a solid wall (no cannelure) plated (economical) and longer bullet makes for better case friction.

The worst bullets I've worked with are these 95gn poly coated things with a cannelure, and all the problems you describe.

Best results are with 115-125gn plated with no cannelure.

I've also been using a faster powder if only as a function from a lack of barrel length. There is basically no barrel length to continue ignition and pressure.

I'm not trying to be Dirty Harry here, and am loading just enough powder that complete ignition happens and I'm not dealing with unburnt powder jamming things up. It still gives a pretty good pop out of a 2 inch barrel.