Full Length Sizing Coming Up Short

[Hinnerk]

I have recently been building some .303 Savage ammo and have a nice old set of Pacific Durochrome dies. Trouble is, if I set up the full length sizing die at the cam over point I am finding the case head to .375" datum point is 1.388". Published data gives that length as 1.418" and this agrees with measurements of my fired brass (which tend to go beyond that). The die does not look modified. I am using an RCBS #21 shell holder.

To avoid the problem of pushing the shoulder back so much I am using a feeler gauge when setting up the die. I don't know if the issue is with the die or the shell holder.

Thoughts?

[bigbossman]

Just back out the sizing die until you get what you want?

[Hinnerk]

Just back out the sizing die until you get what you want?

That is essentially what I am doing by inserting the feeler gauge "shims" between the shell holder and die when setting it.

[pacrat]

That is essentially what I am doing by inserting the feeler gauge "shims" between the shell holder and die when setting it.

Much easier to simply do a proper adjustment of your sizer and lock it in place.

What you are saying doesn't make any sense from a mechanical measurement standpoint.

You stated that with die set to "cam over" your shoulders are shorter than you want. Just back the die up until you get the desired datum to base dimension.

[Hinnerk]

Much easier to simply do a proper adjustment of your sizer and lock it in place.

What you are saying doesn't make any sense from a mechanical measurement standpoint.

You stated that with die set to "cam over" your shoulders are shorter than you want. Just back the die up until you get the desired datum to base dimension.

It is not only shorter than I want but shorter than expected by published data. I know that this is an "ancient" cartridge but I would expect the dies to follow published specs. Were the specs ever different? Is it normal for full length sizing dies to push the shoulder back 0.030" from design specs?

[pacrat]

It is not only shorter than I want but shorter than expected by published data. I know that this is an "ancient" cartridge but I would expect the dies to follow published specs. Were the specs ever different? Is it normal for full length sizing dies to push the shoulder back 0.030" from design specs?

Actually it is the same age as the 30-30. And ballistically has a slight edge on the Win cartridge.

As to your other concerns. The 303 Sav was very popular from 1895 up til the 1930s. SAAMI wasn't formed until 1926. And I don't know if Savage was an original member. But prior to SAAMI, individual manufacturers chamber dimensions were all over the place.

To this day, even though most manufacturers are SAAMI members. Most factory bottle neck rifle cartridges are made slightly under SAAMI minimum spec. They do this to assure it will function in all firearms chambered for those calibers.

Likely your dies just need proper adjusting.

What rifle are you loading for?

[bigbossman]

Much easier to simply do a proper adjustment of your sizer and lock it in place.....

You stated that with die set to "cam over" your shoulders are shorter than you want. Just back the die up until you get the desired datum to base dimension.

Likely your dies just need proper adjusting.

That's the thing..... I'm having trouble understanding the OP's concern. If the die is sizing the brass too short, it is not the die or shell holder that is the issue., The die just needs to be adjusted correctly. Unless it is the OP's position that the die adjustment is "correct" only if the press cams over?

I'm not trying to be dense, I'm sincerely missing something here.

[Hinnerk]

...

What rifle are you loading for?

Rifle is a 1913 manufactured Savage model 1899.

[Hinnerk]

That's the thing..... I'm having trouble understanding the OP's concern. If the die is sizing the brass too short, it is not the die or shell holder that is the issue., The die just needs to be adjusted correctly. Unless it is the OP's position that the die adjustment is "correct" only if the press cams over?

I'm not trying to be dense, I'm sincerely missing something here.

The instructions state to adjust at the cam over point. Yes, I am assuming that this would put the resulting case closer to spec than .030" short. That just seems like a lot of slop in my experience. Of course you can't adjust a die to size shorter than the cam over point without grinding something down. I don't see any evidence of that on the die or shell holder. Not sure what shell holder was originally intended to work with Pacific Durochrome but it may be that the RCBS shell holder I have is "shorter" than that, if the die wasn't designed with this amount of slop. Being an old cartridge, the die may actually be designed this way, as Pacrat suggests.

[bigbossman]

The instructions state to adjust at the cam over point. Yes, I am assuming that this would put the resulting case closer to spec than .030" short. That just seems like a lot of slop in my experience. Of course you can't adjust a die to size shorter than the cam over point without grinding something down. I don't see any evidence of that on the die or shell holder. Not sure what shell holder was originally intended to work with Pacific Durochrome but it may be that the RCBS shell holder I have is "shorter" than that, if the die wasn't designed with this amount of slop. Being an old cartridge, the die may actually be designed this way, as Pacrat suggests.

OK - gotcha.

FWIW, I never had much luck with Pacific chromed dies. I used one for a while with 30-30 brass, and found it on the sloppy side. RCBS and Lee dies fixed that issue for me.

Just throwing a dart, but if you can get your hands on a set of RCBS or other dies to compare, that might be a worthwhile thing to do.

[pacrat]

The instructions state to adjust at the cam over point. Yes, I am assuming that this would put the resulting case closer to spec than .030" short. That just seems like a lot of slop in my experience. Of course you can't adjust a die to size shorter than the cam over point without grinding something down. I don't see any evidence of that on the die or shell holder. Not sure what shell holder was originally intended to work with Pacific Durochrome but it may be that the RCBS shell holder I have is "shorter" than that, if the die wasn't designed with this amount of slop. Being an old cartridge, the die may actually be designed this way, as Pacrat suggests.

Look at the issue from a manufacturers view. If they grind the die to be dead on for base to datum dimension. With a cam over with a hard die to SH fit. There are going to be a lot of rifles that ammo made in those dies won't fit.

But if they grind the die to be slightly short with a hard cam over. Then ammo loaded will fit and function in all rifles of that caliber. But be a bit of a sloppy fit. JUST LIKE FACTORY AMMO IS.

And a more discerning user [YOU] can then adjust the die to properly fit your particular rifle.

BTW............Shell Holders by all major makers are standardized. They are all made to be the same .125" from base of case to top of the SH.

[fguffey]

The instructions state to adjust at the cam over point.

Where did you find the instructions? I decided I was the only reloader with die instructions; rational, all reloaders claimed the Rock Chucker press is a cam over press and then they thought it was cool to 'bump' like "I bump". It was about that time they started calming they could move the shoulder back.

BTW............Shell Holders by all major makers are standardized. They are all made to be the same .125" from base of case to top of the SH.

BTW, that is not true. If it was true C&H of El Monte, California would not have found it necessary to include instructions on the bottom of their fiber die box. The instructions went something like: Use these die with Shell holders with a height of .125". I added the word 'deck', problem, reloaders have never seen a D&H fiber die box. And then there are all of those reloaders that never turned the box over while liking for the instructions.

In the old days I checked the shell holder deck height, I still have shell holders that are off by .010" + - .005". Internet reloaders have claimed it was necessary to match the die brand with the shell holder.

But if they grind the die to be slightly short with a hard cam over. Then ammo loaded will fit and function in all rifles of that caliber. But be a bit of a sloppy fit. JUST LIKE FACTORY AMMO IS.

What is a hard cam over?

But be a bit of a sloppy fit. JUST LIKE FACTORY AMMO IS

How can that be? "Just like factory Ammo? The die sized cases like factory ammo before the reloader went ape and started grinding.

F. Guffey

[pacrat]

Hinnerk

The "guffster's" self proclaimed ignorance, by not himself being able to answer his own simpleton questions. Is a perfect example exactly why, No One on any reloading forum anywhere on the interwebs. Pays any attention to his childish need for attention.

His self imposed delusion that you "went ape and started grinding" reflects his cognitive dissonance, and lack of reading comprehension.

[fguffey]

If you can not answer my questions you will never be able to answer the question.

Grinding on a die without a clue: The die returns the case to minimum length/full length sized. I have never ground the bottom of a die off, I have never found it necessary. Other reloaders do not have a clue as to the effect grinding on the bottom of the die has on sizing. Shortening the die by grinding on the bottom of the die shortens the die; I understand if I shortened a die by grinding the base I am making a custom die for sizing cases for short chambers.

And then there is the 'by how much?' when grinding to shorten. I doubt there is a reloader on this forum that has measured the length of a die; and then there are fewer that would know what to do with the measurement.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

And I ask what does it mean to 'hard cam over?'

You are out there in the fast lane showing off and then? Did you miss second gear? Run out of gas?

F. Guffey