30-30 again

[NapalmCheese]

Yeah..... no. Do not shoot .311 jacketed bullets in a 30-30 unless you know for a fact that your bore is oversized.

Yeah the .311 bullet recommendation is ONLY for cast lead, NOT jacketed bullets.

[sghart]

I am starting to feel really bad for you bhilliker. I have had nothing but outstanding results with my Marlins.

I'm not suggesting that you can't do it yourself but I would be willing to help you out in person if you wanted to meet at the Sac Valley Range some time. I live in the north part of Sac County and I shoot at Sac Valley 2 or 3 times a month.

We can check your bore for leading and remove it if needed.

I will repeat my original advice from the other thread. A lead bullet, sized to .311", loaded over 25-27 gr of 3031. Works every time.


Steve in N CA

[bhilliker@comcast.net]

SGHART---might take you up on that. There are a couple things I need fix right up front and that is getting the right bullet. That might take some time. Next---I need to revisit my case oal as I see some fluctuation with those. 2.025 to 2.032 so I have to fix that. Once I clean up the OAL issue and get the right bullets I'm pretty sure I can work this out. As for fouling---this gun has maybe 250 rounds through it and I did not see any indication of that today. I've only put 30 cast rounds down the bore since I've owned it. The rest have been jacketed. Maybe 65 reloads and the rest jacketed factory. Feeling pretty confident.

[slamfire1]

Let me give my experience.

This is my Marlin 336





I spent a lot of time casting bullets and going out and shooting them. All efforts were futile.









Clearly the groups were blown, may have been blown from the start, but they sure got worse at the powder charge and velocity increased. Even when duplicating the first target velocity, once the round count increases, I started to see huge flyers, as seen on the last target.

I owned this rifle for decades before I finally decided to find where the throat started. Now, to eject a loaded round, the maximum OAL is 2.550". Any longer and the round is too long to be ejected, this distance is the distance from the ejector to the front of the loading port. It is a real, and inescapable, distance. I purchased a Sinclair bullet seating depth tool for a number of calibers, and I used it, after buying the special 30-30 case, to measure just how far out the bullet has to jump before it engages rifling. The cartridge OAL had to be over 3 inches for the bullet to touch the rifling. Any bullet, lead or otherwise, has to jump a half inch of air, before it touches the rifling in the throat. This rifle will never shoot cast lead bullets accurately, and there is no tinkering, load charge, anything, that will change that. There is no doubt, in my mind, that bullets are being bent, or massively off axis, before they enter the throat, and that includes all bullets.This rifle, by nature of a horrible chambering job, will never be an accurate rifle, at least by my standards.

I did talk to Marlin New Haven, just before the turn of the century. It was about my M1894, but I found that the attitude was, to them, their customer was not a target shooter. These rifles were viewed as 50 yard rifles. I have no doubt that their customer was, and is, someone who does not reload, does not clean their rifle, and does not practice shooting. Their customer wants a rifle that goes bang, in all weather, regardless of never had been cleaned in its lifetime.

So, Marlin reamed huge chambers that rat's nests could be built in, and the gun would still go bang and eject the round.

The consequence is, these rifles are what they are.

I shot at least 500 rounds with 170 gr RN jacketed bullets before I figured out the chamber throat was so far ahead of the bullet. I used 170 grain bullet because I wanted a long bullet that would upset. That is about it. The other choice is a 150 grain bullet. I determined, to my satisfaction that the accuracy range for a 170 grain bullet in this rifle is 2150 fps to 2200 fps. Sometimes bullets pushed slower did well, bullets pushed faster always did badly. This rifle is not forgiving about velocity, or velocity variations. The powders that provided the lowest extreme spreads and standard deviations shot best.

These charges are way above any manual because the chamber in my rifle is so huge. I do think the powder types will be good choices in other Marlin336's

This is the best ten shot group this rifle ever shot at 100 yards



did well at 200 yards




all cases were coated with a lubricant, here I was using a hair gel which is vasoline and perfumes. Coating a new case with a lubricant, and firing it lubricated, prevents sidewall stretch on the first firing. The case ends up perfectly fireformed to the chamber, and stress free. Afterwards, bump the shoulder back 0.003" and no more.




IMR 4064 did well



IMR 3031 did well, and it was a recommended 30-30 powder for years.





Varget flung shots, did so in every group at every powder charge level. Heck if I know way. I am not using Varget in this rifle.





the rifle liked AA4064 . No idea why.





All of these groups are acceptable out to 200 yards for hunting. If they will stay within a seven inch circle, they will stay within the vital zone of an animal, if you do your part. I did not shoot any groups less than 100 yards, but if all the rifle does at 50 yards is 1.5" groups, that is more than adequate for game, at 50 yards. This rifle is not, and never will be, a target rifle. It has, and can still, be a game getter if the range and accuracy of the rifle is understood, and used within its limitations.

don't even think about shooting beyond 200 yards. The bullet floats and is too wind sensitive





This was the only factory ammunition I shot through the rifle, this 150 gr bullet chronographed at 2253 fps for a seven shot group. I don't really see a velocity advantage to using the 150 in this low pressure cartridge.



So, my opinion, stop trying to make cast bullets work, they won't. Go straight to loading jacketed bullets. I recommend trying IMR 3031 and IMR 4064 or AA4064. Vihtavuori powders are too expensive and don't shrink the groups enough to justify the additional cost. Keep 170 grain bullet velocities between 2150 and 2200 fps. I don't know the velocity tolerances of 150 grain bullets, but stick to the factory 2250 fps as they have been loading ammunition for these things for a century.

[bhilliker@comcast.net]

Iron horse----31 grains IMR 4895 Sierra 170 fn 2001,2010,2032 fps. Do you get good results with this? That's over what my book states. From what everyone here has mentioned today you need to push the jacketed pretty fast. I loaded up some 160 grain at 30 grains of IMR 4895. From your data it would indicate I could play up a little from there?

[bhilliker@comcast.net]

Now that is some impressive data!!!! You have stated what I have known that this is a brush gun that was not made to be a bulls eye weapon. Needed to put that back into perspective. That said clearly there are those who strive for that kind of accuracy with their weapon. At this point I'd be happy with 5 shots at 50 yards in a four inch circle! I think I can do that--maybe 5 inch circle!! I think everyone's input on a longer heavier bullet is accurate. I will have to wait to get some as I am in between jobs at the moment. Might try and push the 160 FTX rounds for the heck of it. Great data!!!

[slamfire1]

Now that is some impressive data!!!! You have stated what I have known that this is a brush gun that was not made to be a bulls eye weapon. Needed to put that back into perspective. That said clearly there are those who strive for that kind of accuracy with their weapon. At this point I'd be happy with 5 shots at 50 yards in a four inch circle! I think I can do that--maybe 5 inch circle!! I think everyone's input on a longer heavier bullet is accurate. I will have to wait to get some as I am in between jobs at the moment. Might try and push the 160 FTX rounds for the heck of it. Great data!!!

Hope it was useful.

My testing was before the FTX technology. I doubt the bullet will be any more accurate than a 150 or 170 grain bullets as the limiting factor is the rifle. Just take a look at all the stuff hanging off the barrel, and the complicated vibrational nodes that must be going on.

At CMP Talladega they have learned to be skeptical about accuracy claims by owners of lever guns. They will allow you to shoot at 300 yards with a lever rifle, but only if you keep all shots in the black at 200 yards. And regardless of how you shoot, or how you think it shoots beyond 300 yards, they will not let a lever gunner blast away at the 600 yard targets. Those electronic targets are expensive and costly to repair.

I have shot 30-30 bullets in bolt guns, and they group well, but I doubt they would hold their structural integrity at 308 Win velocities. They would probably come unglued once they hit something. But in a lever action, should mushroom nicely. At least you are buying the proper bullet, given that they will be traveling at 30-30 velocities, you need bullets that will expand at 30-30 velocities, and everything I have read about the 170 grain bullets, hunters have been happy with them.

[choprzrul]

About 10 years ago I went thru the process of getting my '94 Trapper in 30-30 to give me decent groups. I found very large velocity spreads and spent a lot of time and effort getting my SD down to a single digit.

In a nutshell, that rifle likes about 103% charge of W748 behind a Sierra 170gr FP bullet.

Check out LynnJR's advice in this thread.

Here is my pursuit of 30-30 velocity variance.

Good luck sir.....I hope this helps in some small way.

.

[ironhorse1]

Iron horse----31 grains IMR 4895 Sierra 170 fn 2001,2010,2032 fps. Do you get good results with this? That's over what my book states. From what everyone here has mentioned today you need to push the jacketed pretty fast. I loaded up some 160 grain at 30 grains of IMR 4895. From your data it would indicate I could play up a little from there?

I have a lot of older reloading manuals. They all list some pre lawyer loads which are safe as tested in my Marlin.

Slamfire has listed a lot of data and I see the loads he used were much higher than any that I can find listed.

Also it is duly noted that his Marlin has a generous chamber and a long lead to the rifling.

Loads that may be safe in his Marlin will have to be worked up in any other rifle.

My Marlin was made in 1974 and has almost no lead and a spec chamber and performs well with any 170 grain jacketed bullet or cast bullet and has the same POI with any powder loaded to 2000 fps.

In Ken Water's Pet Loads he lists IMR-4895 and a 170 Sierra FN at 32 grains maximum and 33 grains of IMR 4064 maximum 31 grains of IMR 3031 maximum.

Try some .311 cast bullets in 170+ grains and stay below 2,000 fps for best results.

Do you know the DOM of your Marlin?

irh

[bigbossman]

About 10 years ago I went thru the process of getting my '94 Trapper in 30-30 to give me decent groups. I found very large velocity spreads and spent a lot of time and effort getting my SD down to a single digit.

In a nutshell, that rifle likes about 103% charge of W748 behind a Sierra 170gr FP bullet.

Check out LynnJR's advice in this thread.

Here is my pursuit of 30-30 velocity variance.

Good luck sir.....I hope this helps in some small way.

.

Damn..... that's a whole lot of work to get a 30-30 to shoot right. Almost makes me wanna chrono my 30-30 loads......but they shoot really well right now, and I don't think I want to know.

[choprzrul]

Damn..... that's a whole lot of work to get a 30-30 to shoot right. Almost makes me wanna chrono my 30-30 loads......but they shoot really well right now, and I don't think I want to know.

Ha! I hear you there. After a while, I couldn't stop....I just needed to find an answer....

.

[bigbossman]

Ha! I hear you there. After a while, I couldn't stop....I just needed to find an answer....

I have a hunting buddy (who has posted on this thread ) that has asked me what my hunting loads chrono at - I have no idea...... All I know is that they group well, and kill stuff dead. I have a chono, and do use it.... I just never got around to chronographing my two hunting loads. Probably will one of these days, but big game hunting season just ended for me and I have meat in the freezer so no rush. I shoot several caliber lever guns in silhouette competition, but use well established loads that really don't need much fooling with. They do pretty well and I win my share of bling, so I'm lazy with that, too.

I'm lazy WRT load development.... I start in the middle of the charge range for the bullet/powder I'm using, and load up in half grain increments. I pick the best group and I'm done. The only caveats are twofold:

1) The group has to be sub MOA
2) Copper bullets (when I lived in CA) had to loaded to max or near max.