Load data 40 S&W with universal...barely cycling

[rsrocket1]

[Sailormilan2]

Lyman Manual #49 lists min/max charges of 4.8/5,5 (832/1006 fps) and 4.7/5.4 (871/1009 fps) for two slightly differently shaped 175 gr bullets.
Hav you slugged your bore, and checked the diameter of the bullets? An over sized bore will lower pressure, as will an undersized bullets.

[Corbin Dallas]

Hey guys,
I asked about 9mm and found running mid to light loads with universal doesn't work and it needs to run on the hotter end so now I loaded some 40 sw at 5.0g with 180g coated lead bullets and it cycled 2/3 of the time.

I'll change the primers since I also noticed some light strikes that didn't go off.

Wolf spp, maybe those are junk.

I'll go back to CCI 500 I think is what I have.

Mainly the issue was when I watched it shoot it wouldn't go into full battery.

It's a couple mm back and I can force it in with my thumb and shoot it.

When I load it with the slide locked back then release it chambers fine and doesn't seem to have a chambering issue so I'm thinking if the charge was just a little light it's not causing the slide to go back all the way therefore not returning with full power. Does that sound logical?

I'm going to clean it and up the charge a little and see but wanted to see if the brain trust had experience with Universal.

So far I've loaded my 45 acp with it and read it needs to be loaded above hodgdons current max load and seem many have said that's the case with 9mm and maybe 40 sw.

Ran smooth and accurate with 6.7g in my 45acp 1911 with Hodgdon max at 6.4g I think with 185g berry's plated swc.

Wow, that's a LOT to digest in one paragraph.


First questions:

What gun is the 40S&W?
What is the OAL of your loaded cartridges?
Do you have a SAAMI gauge and did you check them?

[Dooder]

Sounds like universal is a bit of a misleading name then?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not at all. It can be used to charge a wide array of cartridges. But it just doesn't do it optimally.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Geofois]

Plunk test result was every round dropped in and fell out easily with no effort. Even with a light crimp it worked fine but I put just enough so the edge felt smooth.

I wouldn't be surprised if the gun needed a good cleaning and that could have caused the issue. It felt dirty when I racked it. It's not mine but I cleaned it for him and now it's really smooth. I'm going to make some more rounds with 5.0g Universal and check. I bet it will work fine but to be safe I made some with 5.5g Universal and I'll compare.

Gun is a Glock 23
COL 1.12"
RCBS digital caliper was used to measure col.

As Dooder mentions even the discussions that were similar like mine an adjustment of powder load corrected the cycling issues so Universal seems to be fairly universal but some powders will be better for a given round.

Thanks guys let's see what it does this weekend.

[Corbin Dallas]

Plunk test result was every round dropped in and fell out easily with no effort. Even with a light crimp it worked fine but I put just enough so the edge felt smooth.

I wouldn't be surprised if the gun needed a good cleaning and that could have caused the issue. It felt dirty when I racked it. It's not mine but I cleaned it for him and now it's really smooth. I'm going to make some more rounds with 5.0g Universal and check. I bet it will work fine but to be safe I made some with 5.5g Universal and I'll compare.

Gun is a Glock 23
COL 1.12"
RCBS digital caliper was used to measure col.

As Dooder mentions even the discussions that were similar like mine an adjustment of powder load corrected the cycling issues so Universal seems to be fairly universal but some powders will be better for a given round.

Thanks guys let's see what it does this weekend.

I would NOT shoot the 5.5g you loaded. That's almost 10% over max and you're under recommended COL of 1.125.



If your G23 is not fully cycling and you have to push it 1/8 inch farther to be fully in battery then either your rounds are not 100% SAAMI compliant

OR

You need to flip your slide lock installed backwards. You want the lip pointing to the rear of the firearm.

[Geofois]

Thanks Corbin, if you read my discussion you'll see my measured velocities for the charges I used in 9mm and 40 sw were way under the stated velocity for the hodgdon site. As you know batches of powder can vary. My 9mm barely kicks out the case inches from a clean gun and stays on the table with 4.0g and way under of the stated velocity of the hodgdon site with my 5" barrel vs 4". The 40sw also way under velocity. I've read countless discussions with this same issue so I tested with my chrono and seems to be the case. A COL of 1.12" will not cause the pistol to not go into battery. .005" under won't do that. I did read many discussions with it being long causing that but let's not make this a discussion about the minuscule since I stated actual measured velocities showing a powder issue for sure. But I'm sure a dirty gun won't help a weak round so I've cleaned it and will redo the test maybe Sunday and let you guys know what the velocity is and how it cycled. The 3rd reason a gun can not go into battery could be the dirty slide with a anemic round and I'm sure others can state a 4th and 5th reason but I appreciate the help. I'll check out the slide lock. The slide on this 40 feels so much easier than my 18lb slide on my XD9 but that probably doesn't mean anything. My friend bought his Glock 23 new so it should also be 18lb. Just noticed your pic of the hodgdon site shows a max charge of 5.8g with a 180g bullet wow. I don't think I'll need to go that high and its a hornady xtp but interesting that a same weighted bullet is fine at 5.8g. I think I've read a copper jacketed bullet need some more powder to achieve similar velocities.

Checked the slide lock and it's fine

[Corbin Dallas]

Thanks Corbin, if you read my discussion you'll see my measured velocities for the charges I used in 9mm and 40 sw were way under the stated velocity for the hodgdon site. As you know batches of powder can vary. My 9mm barely kicks out the case inches from a clean gun and stays on the table with 4.0g and way under of the stated velocity of the hodgdon site with my 5" barrel vs 4". The 40sw also way under velocity. I've read countless discussions with this same issue so I tested with my chrono and seems to be the case. A COL of 1.12" will not cause the pistol to not go into battery. .005" under won't do that. I did read many discussions with it being long causing that but let's not make this a discussion about the minuscule since I stated actual measured velocities showing a powder issue for sure. But I'm sure a dirty gun won't help a weak round so I've cleaned it and will redo the test maybe Sunday and let you guys know what the velocity is and how it cycled. The 3rd reason a gun can not go into battery could be the dirty slide with a anemic round and I'm sure others can state a 4th and 5th reason but I appreciate the help. I'll check out the slide lock. The slide on this 40 feels so much easier than my 18lb slide on my XD9 but that probably doesn't mean anything. My friend bought his Glock 23 new so it should also be 18lb. Just noticed your pic of the hodgdon site shows a max charge of 5.8g with a 180g bullet wow. I don't think I'll need to go that high and its a hornady xtp but interesting that a same weighted bullet is fine at 5.8g. I think I've read a copper jacketed bullet need some more powder to achieve similar velocities.

Checked the slide lock and it's fine

The 5.8g is for a FMJ bullet, not coated lead which I can only infer this is what you're using.

Hodgdon Universal is one step slower than Alliant Unique (which I use for my 40SW).

RE: https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploa...rate-color.pdf

I run bear creek 180g (moly coated lead) and I load 6.3g with a COL of 1.12

According to Alliant, 180G JHP should be 6.7g at 1.12 - but again, this is a FMJ bullet, not moly coated lead.


Even if you go by the BERB - Berry's Bullets (plated), 5.0g should be more than enough to run the slide.

Couple of things to address.

1) A shorter COL = higher pressures
2) A dirty glock doesn't care. I've put 10k + through a G23 and never cleaned it. Still went into battery every time.


Sorry, I re-read this thread and found your chrono numbers. The numbers you're getting are more than enough to fully run the slide.

I would ask a shooting buddy of yours to also run the same rounds through another firearm and see if you get the same results.


Something to try the next time you don't return to full battery. Can you remove the round with ease? If so, are their any marks on the bullet that would show it's entering the chamber too deep thus causing the out of battery?

Do you have any other bullets to load that are of a different manufacturer?

If so and you load these up, does it have the same issue?


Finally, I have to ask. Is your G23 100% factory?

[Geofois]

OK cool so we're running the same COL. So you get my point that 5.0 should be enough in the glock and that in both guns it's running slower that states velocities and not running the slide is an issue in both guns. Yes as I've states in this discussion the chrono results are all up there in the other comments and yes they are slower than stated in the site so 100% there is a powder charge issue. Question is only how much of a contribution is it. For sure in my 9mm it's 100% the reason it won't cycle.
1) 100% correct so my 1.12" COL should give higher pressure vs lower pressure that seems to be the case based on measured velocities but again let's not get caught up on .005" shorter than 1.125" as being a cause.
2) good to know but that actually sounds funny to say since how much dirt will make a difference and someone also stated a dirty chamber can hang up a round and an ejection. But I'll let others talk about if a gun feels gritty and sqeaks as nothing to cause anything. You could be right but if we're discussing a .005" reduction in COL but saying a dirty gun doesn't matter doesn't seem logical.
Feel free to read the comments with my chrono results. The actual speed vs published speed will tell you. Any significant variation should spread some light. To me 75 fps slower is significant but some rounds 100 fps slower than published on hodgdon. If 5.5g of universsal behind my 180g lead yields the same as what Hodgdon states for 5.1g consistently then that will explain a bit. Just to be clean none of my 5.0g loaded rounds reached 925fps of the minimum charge stated on hodgdon. I'm also testing with 5.0 and a clean gun so if those work 100% then the dirty squeaky slide in this case did have an effect. I'll let other chime and state if a dirty gun matters.

[Geofois]

Finally got to the range so here are some results with Universal
45 acp 185g berry's swc avg velocity for 10 shots with 6.4g max load on hodgdon 906fps. 6.7g avg 972fps. Hodgdon had 180g LFP 6.4g 1019fps. I'm significantly slower. 6.4 is more like a mid load vs max load.
357 coated lead flat nose cone 5.5g avg 863fps. Hodgdon has 1046fps with 4.8g of universal. I should be closer to 1100fps. My 150g swc with the same 5.5g load avg was 926fps so kinda odd the heavier bullet went faster. Compared to hodgdon 158 lswc I'm still too slow but more not as bad. It should be closer to 1100fps judging by their 6.2g at 1247fps I guess.
40 S&W coated lead cone flat point 5g universal avg was 936fps. Hodgdon 5.1g universal was 1002fps. I did 5.5g next and the avg was 1020fps. Cleaning the gun made it cycle just fine with the hodgdon max load but the velocity was almost as slow as the minimum load. I'll do 5.2 or 5.3 to achieve a mid load velocity.
Maybe this batch of Universal isn't as hot as what hodgdon tested. It seemed to burn fine.

[Sandspider500]

Your 40 truncated cone bullet looks like another copy of an Oregon trail bullet.
5" barrel
WSP
180 truncated cone fp
OAL 1.13
Hodgdon universal
Start 4.7gr 933fps
Max 5.1gr 979fps

Your glock has a 4" Barrel right?
You're not going to match the velocity of a longer barrel.

As far as chambering goes, you should be able to manually, holding the slide the whole time, slowly move it forward and chamber a round. The fact that your pistol after firing strips a round from the magazine and chambers it but not completely, points towards a problem with your loaded round, either crimp or some of the full diameter bullet is hitting the rifling or bulged brass, using mixed cases, ring of coating or lead around case mouth, ECT ECT. The answer isn't to use more powder. So much wrong with the way you're using hodgdons data.

[Corbin Dallas]

Your 40 truncated cone bullet looks like another copy of an Oregon trail bullet.
5" barrel
WSP
180 truncated cone fp
OAL 1.13
Hodgdon universal
Start 4.7gr 933fps
Max 5.1gr 979fps

Your glock has a 4" Barrel right?
You're not going to match the velocity of a longer barrel.

As far as chambering goes, you should be able to manually, holding the slide the whole time, slowly move it forward and chamber a round. The fact that your pistol after firing strips a round from the magazine and chambers it but not completely, points towards a problem with your loaded round, either crimp or some of the full diameter bullet is hitting the rifling or bulged brass, using mixed cases, ring of coating or lead around case mouth, ECT ECT. The answer isn't to use more powder. So much wrong with the way you're using hodgdons data.

Spot on.

[Geofois]

Your 40 truncated cone bullet looks like another copy of an Oregon trail bullet.
5" barrel
WSP
180 truncated cone fp
OAL 1.13
Hodgdon universal
Start 4.7gr 933fps
Max 5.1gr 979fps

Your glock has a 4" Barrel right?
You're not going to match the velocity of a longer barrel.

As far as chambering goes, you should be able to manually, holding the slide the whole time, slowly move it forward and chamber a round. The fact that your pistol after firing strips a round from the magazine and chambers it but not completely, points towards a problem with your loaded round, either crimp or some of the full diameter bullet is hitting the rifling or bulged brass, using mixed cases, ring of coating or lead around case mouth, ECT ECT. The answer isn't to use more powder. So much wrong with the way you're using hodgdons data.

Thanks for checking for me. I didn't think it would be a perfect comparison which is why I used multiple guns with the same powder. I'll need to toss the 357 data since hodgdon used a 10" barrel. My 9mm xd has a 5" and hodgdon has a 4" so I should be faster but I was slower in my original posts. I made some ammo to retest but waiting for a couple new springs to test the cycling. My 45 acp is 5" and so is the one in hodgdon data. Since you only showed one gun I'd say there might be something wrong with going off one and ignoring the others right?

For chambering it wasn't driving it partially in. If I took a pic you'd see what I mean. Almost more of a stove pipe as if the slide wasn't moving enough similar to what my 9mm is doing. My retesting of it was the same COL and same bullet only difference was I cleaned my friend's gun thoroughly and then every round fired and cycled perfect. That could have been the issue with that gun. For my 9mm and 45 acp it doesn't explain the slower velocity. My 9mm the case popped out inches and you can tell the slide barely moved back and felt weak. This wasn't a couple shots this was every shot. Just a standard lead round nose 125g bullet. The only constant across all guns is the powder. I can't say how it was stored for years before I got it. It is really hard to believe powder can vary or if stored improperly it can affect it's burn rate? After reading numerous posts regarding Universal this has been discussed quite a bit so a one off search of load data for one of the guns probably isn't spot on but I appreciate your help. If you have an explanation for the other guns I'm happy to read it.

[Sandspider500]

Stop chasing test barrel velocities.

Glock 23 40 s&w
4" barrel
Win case
WSP
180gr Hornady xtp
Cfe pistol 6gr 976fps

Hodgdon data
Hornady case
WSP
4" test barrel
180gr Hornady xtp
Cfe pistol 6gr 1051fps 32,200 PSI

[Geofois]

Yes for sure, I'm just posting the barrel length so people know and trying to keep them the same as what is published but as you know they don't always match. If by chasing you mean reading I'll continue to read load data but realize it won't be an exact system. Only shooting and measuring with my chrono will be used. As I've noted using multiple guns it seems to be the powder. Looks like as I was thinking there is a variety of velocities with similar circumstances judging by what you just posted we can't rely on just one test form one site. What I notice is the fmj bullet usually takes a higher powder charge to achieve the save velocity. From what I've read before lead more easily moves through the barrel. Your data isn't Universal but as we can see one test is different than the next with the same powder. Powder lots can vary, barrels can vary etc.. Main thing is not to go beyond what is a safe charge and published velocity is the main thing I have to go by. If I air on caution then I don't want to go beyond 976 fps for example but if 1051 fps was achieved safely then others might be fine there. I imagine pistols are also designed to use +p rounds and I'm nowhere near that using lead bullet data so it's really just a matter of getting it to cycle right and accurate.