not sure if brass is sized

[fguffey]

Not sure if brass is sized.

As I have said before I am the fan of verifying gages, dies and shell holders. I have never read anything about verifying a die by any member on this forum. I do believe it would be a mistake to assume there is a reloader on this forum that has the equipment, skill and knowhow.

F. Guffey

[HUTCH 7.62]

Tagged

[fguffey]

Reasonable check.

Does a bullet press fit or slip fit would be a test as well.

Press fit or slip fit? There is interference fit, there is crush fit and reloaders do not have a way to measure because they are infatuated with 'tensions' and no way to measure tensions.

All of my gages that measure the amount of effort when seating bullets measures the effort in pounds. AND? There is no one on this forum that can convert tensions to pounds. I believe a good number is 40 pounds; like the young lady ask, "WHAT DOES THE DISH WASHER DO?"

The 40 pounds necessary to seat the bullet is called 'bullet hold', I am the fan of bullet hold; I want all the bullet hold I can get. I can seat a bullet to enable it to slide and glide but then there is the question; what does it take to get the bullet to move?

F. Guffey

[JagerDog]

Your needle is stuck on the record. Go digital or get some new vinyl.

[fguffey]

Your needle is stuck on the record. Go digital or get some new vinyl.

I have no problem with you jumping out into the fast lane and showing off; for most civil members jumping out into the fast lane and immediately running out of gas would be embarrassing; but I have to consider there are members that just can not be insulted.

I have been measuring the amount of effort required to seat a bullet in pounds for many years. I have tension gages; problem, my tension gages do not measure tensions, my tension gages measure in pounds or deflections in thousandths and at the same time they measure in pounds.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Your needle is stuck on the record. Go digital or get some new vinyl.

I have no problem with you jumping out into the fast lane and showing off; for most civil members jumping out into the fast lane and immediately running out of gas would be embarrassing; but I have to consider there are members that just can not be insulted.

I have been measuring the amount of effort required to seat a bullet in pounds for many years. I have tension gages; problem, my tension gages do not measure tensions, my tension gages measure in pounds or deflections in thousandths and at the same time they measure in pounds.

F. Guffey

[Whiterabbit]

Guffey sir,

I've been intrigued by your statements. (which yes, you've made in the past, several times, and some of us are paying attention.) I'm also a believer (truest sense of the word, because I haven;t tried it) that surely seating pressure must be the real indicator for tension on the bullet in the sense of the way we shooters perceive neck tension.

More interesting by far, however, is the real effects leverage that sorting based on seat pressure will have on velocity or downrange performance.

Unfortunately, there is no commercial product that I know of that is commonly available that I can buy that will let me easily measure this value. Furthermore, I think the reason some folks post what they do above, is that when you make your statements, they do not come with that key information: specifically, how I can add this capability to my own reloading bench to check for effects leverage.

So, rather than join the doubting Thomases, and rather than chide you like an internet keyboard jockey (or explain it away) that you are making un-actionable suggestions, I'd like to try a different tack:

I'm currently testing effects leverage for many different factors precision shooters use to uniform their rounds. stuff like tieing charge weight sensitivity to velocity swings (ie is 0.1gr enough or do you need 0.01gr?), testing effects leverage of case weight to velocity, seat depth, annealing, overall length, bullet weight, and the list goes on.

Calgunners have helped me in the past. I compared Lapua brass vs Starline brass in a precision rifle to determine if Lapua shot measurably better. It didn't. (for 243 brass).

So, what I am hoping you can do for me, is tell me about your hardware setup. How did you instrument your press to give you numerical data about bullet seat effort? Is it a home-made contraption, or did you buy it commercially? what is the nature of the device? old-school torque wrench, load cell, or? How much different data do you get out of it? Just seat pressure?

Most important, can you advise us on how we can add this capability to our own benches?

I assure you we have the ability not only to determine effects leverage (for our unique situations of course), but to filter out effects leverage from other factors that might influence the data, as we are measuring a ridiculous number of variables at the moment looking for influencers of SD, and shooting groups that exceed 30 rounds to validate digital statistical significance. This also lets us model interactions (such as charge and seat depth each affecting the other) to make sure that something like seat pressure is not affected by other factors, like annealing or distance from the lands. Or is. We can determine that.

SO. Can you be more open about how you measure this, and how we can measure this?

Thanks in advance!

[divingin]

Unfortunately, there is no commercial product that I know of that is commonly available that I can buy that will let me easily measure this value.

Which value? Seating pressure or release pressure (for lack of a better term)?

For seating pressure, it's easy: https://lewilson.com/k-m-precision-a...ial-indicator/ or any similar setup.

For release pressure, you need to analyze whether, in your opinion, the bullet begins moving prior to the case neck opening under pressure or not, then figure out how to measure it.

Assuming the case neck does not open prior to bullet movement, the measurement would be fairly straightforward: A collet puller could be rigged to a force gauge to read either force on the puller or force on the shellholder.

If you assume the case neck does open before the bullet moves, then you're in for engineering to figure out how to measure.

[Whiterabbit]

Which value?

The one fguffey has access to, and I do not. Yet.

[JagerDog]

Double response post to a stuck needle. Oh the irony.

Press fit and interference fit are the same thing (look it up). If the bullet slips into the case mouth, the case has not been sized (or at least not properly). If it's requires significant pressure to engage the bullet into the case mouth, it's been sized. I'd still prefer to size with my own die, since that's what I'll be using in the future and case mouths could have been made out-of-round during shipment/handling.

No one mentioned "tensions".

Your diatribe is beyond overused and mundane.

And as mentioned by others, you never actually offer any instruction. Whether you're brilliant or full of crap, the resultant is the same.

[fguffey]

I assure you we have the ability not only to determine effects leverage (for our unique situations of course), but to filter out effects leverage from other factors that might influence the data, as we are measuring a ridiculous number of variables at the moment looking for influencers of SD, and shooting groups that exceed 30 rounds to validate digital statistical significance. This also lets us model interactions (such as charge and seat depth each affecting the other) to make sure that something like seat pressure is not affected by other factors, like annealing or distance from the lands. Or is. We can determine that.

thank you very much, a few years ago a shooter, reloader/collector signed onto a forum; he wanted to know how to cast a chamber, I am not talking about the short version; the short version is the one you will get from those that have never case a chamber and are repeating everything they have heard on the Internet. As expected it was not long before they were taking liberties as in insulting him because they knew very little to nothing about casting chambers.

And then I got involved and apologized to him on the behalf of the members, and it got worst. I contacted him and offered to work with him off line by phone. Because of the behavior displayed on the Internet he was very skeptical.

First I asked him to forget most of what he had read on the Internet, after that we got started on a few projects, in a short period of time he cast every chamber in all of his rifles.

And then he had other questions about chamber, cases and datums. the man was sharp. He hit a rough patch because all of the information he was provided was made up by reloaders that worked in the claims department; they claimed they were chamber casters.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

significance. This also lets us model interactions (such as charge and seat depth each affecting the other) to make sure that something like seat pressure is not affected by other factors, like annealing or distance from the lands. Or is. We can determine that.

[/QUOTE]

I do not believe you will ever get there because of the infatuation with tensions. That is tensions with no way to measure it or convert it to pounds or Newtons. I dug out another gage thinking I could start out with another tool with a different name, I put the gage back and got over the urge in a hurry. I used the 'other tool' to determine if there was there was a difference in the ability of case lube to reduce the effort required to size a case.

For the most part any case lube available works, some better that others and then I settled on a lube I call 'NO NAME' because it did not have a name. This stuff is as slick a okra. I only use it of the toughest of cases to size. And then there is case forming, this stuff works like magic.

Pleasing everyone: MY old friend died last summer, when asked to help him because he was in a bind he insisted I do not bring my 'no name; lube because according to him nothing worked as good as Imperial or Dillon in a spray can or bottle. You will not believe how difficult it was to make Imperial or Dillon to look good.

F. Guffey

[H3nchman]

Try a headspace tool such as the Hornady. Shoot some rounds through your rifle. Measure the headspace. Then size the 556 to be 3-5 thousandths below that. I do this for my Wylde chamber. Why guess with a case guage. Just check with something that gives you numbers.

[fguffey]

Why guess with a case guage. Just check with something that gives you numbers.

Why guess with a case gage? There has to be something reloaders do not understand about the case gage; All of the numbers necessary/required to determine the dimensions of the case are there. It is not necessary for a reloader to look up the case length, the length of the gage is the length of the case from the end of the neck to the case head. Go-gage length and minimum case length from the datum to the case head is there. And then there is case stretch Most reloaders do not have a clue when it comes to case stretch' did the case stretch between the case body and case head?

And then reloaders swear they can move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support and then there is that cute little saying they are trained to say (but do not understand) "I bump" as in I bump the shoulder back. It is impossible to bump the shoulder back, it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

One more time: The Wilson case gage has been with us for over 70 years, in all of those years the only thing the reloaders knows and or understands comes from the ones that know the least about the gage. They call it a 'drop in gage'.

If you choose to confuse a reloader call the Wilson case gage a 'datum based tool'.

F. Guffey

[H3nchman]

Why guess with a case gage? There has to be something reloaders do not understand about the case gage; All of the numbers necessary/required to determine the dimensions of the case are there. It is not necessary for a reloader to look up the case length, the length of the gage is the length of the case from the end of the neck to the case head. Go-gage length and minimum case length from the datum to the case head is there. And then there is case stretch Most reloaders do not have a clue when it comes to case stretch' did the case stretch between the case body and case head?

And then reloaders swear they can move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support and then there is that cute little saying they are trained to say (but do not understand) "I bump" as in I bump the shoulder back. It is impossible to bump the shoulder back, it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

One more time: The Wilson case gage has been with us for over 70 years, in all of those years the only thing the reloaders knows and or understands comes from the ones that know the least about the gage. They call it a 'drop in gage'.

If you choose to confuse a reloader call the Wilson case gage a 'datum based tool'.

F. Guffey

My apologies. I get what you are saying about the body of the case. However, I merely wanted to give a solution that gives numbers. Other than a die how are you to size the body?