Case Head Spearation Confirmation

[fguffey]

The shoulder will, however, be pushed down the case (i.e. be bumped back), and those marks will end up one on the neck, and the other partway along the shoulder.

As MG said there is something that is in the head of reloaders that just locks them up. I would disagree about 'what it is'.

Reloaders take a short cut and explain everything is 'bump' as in the shoulder is bumped back etc. Many years ago there was an argument that involved Hatcher and his work. Hatcher was convinced a the case would suffer case head separation if the clearance was .060"+.

Hatcher added .060" to the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. and then fired minimum length/full length ammo in his new creation. During firing his cases did not suffer case head separation nor did they stretch between the case head and case body.

I said I have fired ammo in two of my rifles that had .127" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber, it was not a miracle but the case did not stretch between the case head and case body and the shoulder did not move. When I ejected the cases I found the case had increased in length from the shoulder to the cases head .127", I discovered the shoulder did not move, I discovered the new shoulder was formed from part of the neck and the increase in the case body was formed from part of the shoulder.

I understand the problem that goes on in the head of the reloader, it is not me, reloaders insist the case had head space, they insist they can bump the shoulder back, from the beginning I have suggested the reloader scribe the case body/shoulder juncture, I suggested scribing the case would have reduced Hatchers perception of what happened when he did not get case head stretch and or separation.

How did I get .125" clearance between the shoulder of the case and shoulder of the chamber? I fired 8MM57 ammo in an 8MM06 chamber. The difference on length from the shoulder to the case head between the 8mm57 and 8mm/06 is .127".

When firing and forming there are artifacts that are left on the case, rather than depend on artifacts I have scribed the cases as an example I find it convenient top scribe the case body/shoulder juncture.

I understand there are reloaders that are so desperate for attention they have no standards for behavior. MG has blamed me for his failure to understand. But if he understands ask him if the scribed mark at the case body/shoulder juncture did not become part of the case body when fired....why didn't it.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Since some die makers use this "cam over"

I sent directions to Unclenick a few years ago, he has the same set of directions I have for presses. My directions for the operations for a press describe to presses; one press is a non-cam over press and the other press is a cam-over press. The directions go on to explain the cam over press is a bump press and the other set of instructions claim the non-cam over press is not a bump press.

I have for years tried to get reloaders to back away from the key board; problem, I am beginning to think there is something in their heads, and that something could be nothing.

So reloaders have little skill in searching history and archives. For many years I have said 'bump' came before the Internet and bump had nothing to do with the shoulder of the case. All of the instructions that reloader do not have claim the ram bumps twice, it bumps on the way up and it bumps again on the way down. I could ask about the cam over press and bumping twice, problem; I have to find someone that can keep up.

The last cam over press I used was an A2 RCBS, The distance the ram traveled between up after bump was .017" and the ram traveled down .017" after reaching the top. I know, that makes no sense to a rekloader on this forum and I understand asking "what does that mean" would be a waste of ink but just because MG want to be the 'GO To GUY' I will ask him "What does that mean".

It has nothing to do with me not liking MG, it does have everything to do with the fact I do not respect him.

F. Guffey

[J-cat]

“I bumped the shoulder .002” has 4 words in it.

“I formed a new shoulder in the fired case with .002” clearance” has double the words and conveys the same message.

We don’t need you teaching us how to speak properly.

[smoothy8500]

Yawn....

[SixPointEight]

This shoulder bumping thing is always such a pissing contest. Bumping the shoulder is a term that's in common use that isn't technically the most accurate description of what's going on, but people understand what it means. There's any number of technical terms people use every day which are used incorrectly, however most of us don't have a an absolute melt-down over these minor semantic inconsistencies.

The fact is that we take a case, we measure the length from case head to the shoulder datum and note the length. We put the brass through a die and we take the same measurement and get a new length that's shorter. We could write a thesis enumerating all of the changes that happen to the brass during the sizing process, or we could just use common terminology and say that the shoulder "bumped back" from the first length to the second length. Every reloader on the planet, save one, has accepted the semantic convention of "bumping the shoulder." This one particular person is on a personal crusade against the entire world of reloaders. Someday he will move on. However the term "bumping the shoulder" has been in common use for decades, and will still be used long after he gives up.

[mjmagee67]

Simply put....Bumping the shoulder back is resizing the case and moving the shoulder back less than a typical full length resizing would do.

In my case (pun intended) I have an AR-10 with a rather generous chamber. If I constantly full length resize I get case head separation indicators in as few as 2 reloads. If I just "bump the shoulder" back .003 to .004 inch I get 5 or 6 reloads before I start seeing signs of casehead separation. At 5 or so reloads the neck tension goes south and accuracy goes south with it. At that point the brass stays at the range.

[Metal God]

LMAO , just feed that troll he loves this . I'm on at least 4 different firearms forums Mr Goofy is on . He has been asked , told and pleaded with at least hundreds of times in everyway possible one could explain shoulder bump for no less then 5 years . Just because he's correct doesn't make him right ! There's only one type person that would still be saying the things he is saying as often as he is saying them .

I beg you all , PLEASE stop feeding the beast .


IGNORE LIST

[fguffey]

only way to move the shoulder back is with a die that does not support the case

Simply put....Bumping the shoulder back is resizing the case and moving the shoulder back less than a typical full length resizing would do.

mjmagee67, If it was a simple matter of moving the shoulder back we would not be having this conversation, reloaders choose to ignore the fact it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a full length sizing die that has case body support. I have had reloaders on this forum and other forums tell me they refuse to believe the case locks onto the chamber when fired; and they blame me because they can not keep up.

I have no ideal what it is about sizing a case that is so difficult to understand. When sizing a case I have no guarantee the shoulder I start with is the same shoulder I finish with. When forming cases I have cases that have artifacts left from the original case.

And then there is firing, reloaders assume the shoulder of the case moves forward because a team shooter made up a cute little saying about the firing pin driving the case forward until the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder of the chamber. Many year ago when he made up that cute little saying I ask him if he was leaving anything out; I even asked him to explain the sequence of events between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel. As expected he got angry. Later the same team shooter called SAAMI to report a mistake on their part.

When he started making up stuff he did not do his research; he did not know SAAMI did not list case head space in their drawings. That should have been embarrassing after he declared the case had head space. Once I made him aware of his mistake he blamed SAAMI. He called them and I am sure he told them what a great shooter he was and they should take him seriously.

Nothing changes the fact SAAMI does not list case head space in their drawings. They do list chamber head space, I have no problem accepting SAAMI drawings, I do not make excuses for what I do not know, and it is a weak person that blames someone else for their short comings.

I understand I am not dealing with a group of curious individuals. They have convinced me they do not have enough ambition to push themselves away from the key board when scribing the case body/shoulder juncture of the case.

Many years ago I wanted to know what happen to the shoulder of the case when sized and fired. It was about that time I found the answer was one or the other, and no one on this forum or all of those other forums MG was bragging about can tell me why the shoulder can not be pushed back with a full length sizing die that has case body support.

And I have asked reloaders where the magic .002" got started. Back then I was told I could not do it and now? Everyone is going it or the reloader must purchase Redding Competition shell holders.

F. Guffey

[divingin]

When I ejected the cases I found the case had increased in length from the shoulder to the cases head .127", I discovered the shoulder did not move, I discovered the new shoulder was formed from part of the neck and the increase in the case body was formed from part of the shoulder.

And there's the semantic misdirection I was talking about. You say the shoulder did not move (meaning the existing shoulder material did not magically move forward or back) but you say the length changed. That length change is what everybody except you refers to as shoulder bump. Nobody cares if the shoulder reforms itself from neck or body material; as long as the case now fits the chamber it's all good.

[mjmagee67]

mjmagee67, If it was a simple matter of moving the shoulder back we would not be having this conversation, reloaders choose to ignore the fact it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a full length sizing die that has case body support. I have had reloaders on this forum and other forums tell me they refuse to believe the case locks onto the chamber when fired; and they blame me because they can not keep up.

I have no ideal what it is about sizing a case that is so difficult to understand. When sizing a case I have no guarantee the shoulder I start with is the same shoulder I finish with. When forming cases I have cases that have artifacts left from the original case.

And then there is firing, reloaders assume the shoulder of the case moves forward because a team shooter made up a cute little saying about the firing pin driving the case forward until the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder of the chamber. Many year ago when he made up that cute little saying I ask him if he was leaving anything out; I even asked him to explain the sequence of events between pulling the trigger and the bullet leaving the barrel. As expected he got angry. Later the same team shooter called SAAMI to report a mistake on their part.

When he started making up stuff he did not do his research; he did not know SAAMI did not list case head space in their drawings. That should have been embarrassing after he declared the case had head space. Once I made him aware of his mistake he blamed SAAMI. He called them and I am sure he told them what a great shooter he was and they should take him seriously.

Nothing changes the fact SAAMI does not list case head space in their drawings. They do list chamber head space, I have no problem accepting SAAMI drawings, I do not make excuses for what I do not know, and it is a weak person that blames someone else for their short comings.

I understand I am not dealing with a group of curious individuals. They have convinced me they do not have enough ambition to push themselves away from the key board when scribing the case body/shoulder juncture of the case.

Many years ago I wanted to know what happen to the shoulder of the case when sized and fired. It was about that time I found the answer was one or the other, and no one on this forum or all of those other forums MG was bragging about can tell me why the shoulder can not be pushed back with a full length sizing die that has case body support.

And I have asked reloaders where the magic .002" got started. Back then I was told I could not do it and now? Everyone is going it or the reloader must purchase Redding Competition shell holders.

F. Guffey

Seriously you're a Flat Earther, aren't you???

You whole post simply is not rooted in the reality of reloading as observed by EVERY OTHER PERSON THAT HAS EVER RELOADED RIFLE AMMO...…..

I lost IQ points reading it.

[Metal God]

LOL , I guess I’m the one on everyone’s ignore list .

[J-cat]

Chickens walk around and scratch in the dirt looking for food. They scratch with a purpose. If a chicken could reload, he would not scratch on the shoulder with a scribe. He would simply bump the shoulder for .002” clearance in the chamber so the bolt would close easy.

[longrange1]

you have been GUFFEY'd...and yes you lost IQ points reading it but even more so for responding and or engaging the GUFFEY.

we are not sure if its a he or a she(or combination of both)but we have found the side effects of engaging the GUFFEY are anger and aggression at first that slowly turn into flu like symptoms that include bleeding eyes..diarrhea and or rectal bleeding..hard to breath..heart burn..depression and/or thoughts of suicide...we recommend small doses of GUFFEY to start and if any of the symptoms occur stop engagement immediately and speak with a calguns survivor that has been GUFFEY'd in the past.

please dont think that....the GUFFEY will get to you soon enough...his mom will only let him on the computer 30mins per day...she says the computer is the devil.

[fguffey]

LOL , I guess I’m the one on everyone’s ignore list .
__________________

No, you are the adult that acts like a child. You should have learned to keep your hands to yourself long before you signed onto this forum. And then look at the company you have.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

I doubt anyone on this forum has started a search to determine if SAAMI ever listed head space for the case in their case drawings. SAAMI uses a symbol for head space, they only use the symbol for chamber drawings.

And I wonder has anyone pushed the keyboard away to gain enough room to scribe a case. Again, it is impossible to move a shoulder back with a die that has full body support, and them there is that bumping thing.

From the beginning, it has been the press that bumps. Does anyone know how to tell the difference between a cam over press and a non-cam over press?

I have 3 Rock Chuckers, non of my Rock Chuckers cam over. I have posted proof, what did reloaderd do? They got sillier.

Proof: I have two Piggy Back 11 press attachments. One of the PB11 attachments is installed on one of my Rock Chuckers. My PB11 attachments are auto advance, for the non-mechanically inclined that means the advance mechanism is not allowed to back up, if the press should change directions it will destroy the one way clutch.

I have 2 extra one way clutches JIC, but the Rock Chucker was not designed to cam over, if it did the ram would cause the Piggy Back to back up and RCBS knows this. At one time they sold one way clutches.

F. Guffey