Case Head Spearation Confirmation

[arrowshooter]

Have you tried just slightly bumping the shoulder back and doing a neck resize. I would be curious how far back the neck is being bumped with your full length resizing.

You should measure the length from the base to a datum on the shoulder then resize and remeasure. One would suspect you may be pushing the shoulder back close to .010 inch. or so. Which is only allowing 5 or so reloads.

If you can bump the shoulder back .002 inch to .003 inch you will get more firing. Furthermore you could try neck sizing only. I normally can get 4 to 5 neck sizing's before I will have to bump the shoulder back .004 inch or so. The bolt gets harder to close when the shoulder gets pushed out a little to far. You will probably have to anneal the necks after 5 or 6 reloads. At least that's what I have found with my 30-06 and 308. I get 4 of 5 reloads and the accuracy goes south because lack on neck tension and the bolt starts getting harder to close.

I have run the gamete from zero bump to .0065", with the .0065" being the FL bump (die contact with shell holder + 1/4 turn). I think I ran into my problem by sizing for smooth function in my shortest chamber, which in turn was too much for my largest chamber. I don't think I could have bumped to .010", but I could of hit .009" if I had run some of that .0065" bump stuff in my largest chamber.

Thanks for the heads up on the annealing. I have been practicing that process using the drill and torch method, and I think I am ready to take a whack at trying it on good brass.

[mjmagee67]

I have run the gamete from zero bump to .0065", with the .0065" being the FL bump (die contact with shell holder + 1/4 turn). I think I ran into my problem by sizing for smooth function in my shortest chamber, which in turn was too much for my largest chamber. I don't think I could have bumped to .010", but I could of hit .009" if I had run some of that .0065" bump stuff in my largest chamber.

Thanks for the heads up on the annealing. I have been practicing that process using the drill and torch method, and I think I am ready to take a whack at trying it on good brass.

I use 650 degree Tempalaque.........I paint it on just below the shoulder, I use a small Benzomatic torch and heat up the case mouth while spinning in a drill until the Tempalaque turns.....

[arrowshooter]

I use 650 degree Tempalaque.........I paint it on just below the shoulder, I use a small Benzomatic torch and heat up the case mouth while spinning in a drill until the Tempalaque turns.....

Do you drop it in water, or just a pan?

[Metal God]

Do you drop it in water, or just a pan?

That is your choice , It has no effect on the annealing other then cooling the case faster . I personally just drop mine into a empty pie tin .

I think I ran into my problem by sizing for smooth function in my shortest chamber, which in turn was too much for my largest chamber

I agree that was likely the issue .

[mjmagee67]

Do you drop it in water, or just a pan?

In water just to clean off the Tempalaque……..It comes off pretty easily in just water.

[Metal God]

It comes off pretty easily in just water.

Interesting , I'll have to try that . I've found it dried on the case like epoxy and because of that I never considered simply using water to clean it off . When I first started annealing I used acetone on a Q-tip to clean it off but later found that if I keep a rag close it wipes right off when still hot . So I wipe the case just after heating and before I drop it in the pan .

EDIT : I think the term would be better said BAKED on , meaning after it melts .

[fguffey]

Have you tried just slightly bumping the shoulder back and doing a neck resize. I would be curious how far back the neck is being bumped with your full length resizing.

I can understand the curiosity but the full length sizing die has case body support meaning when the case is shoved into the die the body is sized gradually. When the case body is sized the shoulder is shoved forward and the shoulder takes on a slight radius before the shoulder contacts the shoulder of the die. I have neck sizing dies, I can size the neck with a full length sizing die but to avoid shoulder/case body contact with the die I adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage.

What happens to the neck when the die is adjusted off of the shell holder is not all bad. The part of the neck that is not sized helps center the case in the chamber.

F. Guffey

[mjmagee67]

I can understand the curiosity but the full length sizing die has case body support meaning when the case is shoved into the die the body is sized gradually. When the case body is sized the shoulder is shoved forward and the shoulder takes on a slight radius before the shoulder contacts the shoulder of the die. I have neck sizing dies, I can size the neck with a full length sizing die but to avoid shoulder/case body contact with the die I adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage.

What happens to the neck when the die is adjusted off of the shell holder is not all bad. The part of the neck that is not sized helps center the case in the chamber.

F. Guffey

WRONG........

Please stop with your false info...

[fguffey]

When the case body is sized the shoulder is shoved forward and the shoulder takes on a slight radius before the shoulder contacts the shoulder of the die.

WRONG........

Please stop with your false info...

I understand this stuff can lock you up or drive you to the curb. I am the only reloader that can measure a case, I know that sound strange but all other reloaders claim they move the shoulder back and they claim they can bump the shoulder back; ME? I find it impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

Of the silliest response I get I believe yours is right there on top as being one of the silliest.

F. Guffey

[mjmagee67]

I understand this stuff can lock you up or drive you to the curb. I am the only reloader that can measure a case, I know that sound strange but all other reloaders claim they move the shoulder back and they claim they can bump the shoulder back; ME? I find it impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

Of the silliest response I get I believe yours is right there on top as being one of the silliest.

F. Guffey

Are you a flat earther? Just curious.

[fguffey]

WRONG........

Please stop with your false info...

I can not believe you can say something that stupid and not be embarrassed.
I am sure there are reloaders on this forum that are impressed with you, but they are not doing you any favor by encouraging you.

F. Guffey

[arrowshooter]

Mr. fguffey: So to improve my knowledge/skill, what is exactly happening to the brass case when "bumpers" are bumping? Say for instance I set the FL die to contact the shell holder enough to cause a slight "cam over" and get a base to shoulder datum measurement of 1.2300". I then adjust the FL die down 1/8 turn causing an even greater cam over and get a measurement of 1.2250". What is happening if the shoulder is not being moved down? Is the brass case being compacted, and would that not be leaving a wrinkle in the brass case?

Since some die makers use this "cam over" as part of their die adjustment instructions, are they not taking into consideration the fact that their die is initially making contact with the shoulder at the point where the neck meets the shoulder and as you screw the die down further it starts to push the shoulder down until the shoulder then makes contact with the die giving one that "bumping" action?

[divingin]

Let's go a bit earlier: How is bottleneck rifle brass formed? Disk becomes cup, which becomes deeper cup, which becomes (wait for it...) bottleneck shaped cup (and the rest doesn't matter.) The side walls of the cup are supported so the cup doesn't collapse as the neck is formed. The shoulder formation starts at the mouth of the cup and ends up way further down. Isn't that moving the shoulder while the body is supported? Same thing happens in a full length sizing die.

Now if you're saying that the metal in the shoulder (i.e. mark body/shoulder and shoulder/neck and those marks don't move relative to the shoulder formation) doesn't move further down the case to the new location, I would agree with that.

The shoulder will, however, be pushed down the case (i.e. be bumped back), and those marks will end up one on the neck, and the other partway along the shoulder.

If that's the basis of your argument, that the shoulder as it is does not move down the case, I'd say you're just using semantics so you can feel superior to those you're confusing the hell out of. If it's something else, I'd love a clear explanation (that doesn't involve long-chambered .30-06's.)

[Metal God]

He’s a troll and as such he gets off on others negatively interacting with him . I strongly recommend using your ignore list in your USER CP section at the top left portion of the page . It’s just not worth letting some peope rent space in your head .

[arrowshooter]

Awww man, I was looking forward to being a mo betta bumper reloader with both skills and knowledge.