I eFed up a load development ladder test

[kcstott]

Load development is the most over thought part of shooting there is...if everyone put as much time behind the gun as they do making grafts and charts and plotting peaks and valleys and flat spots on the computer they would be better shooters.

The quest for the perfect load is endless the big question is are you able to shoot well enough to take advantage of the perfect load!


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There's a hole lotta truth to that statement right there. And your statement on case prep. There are benchrest people out there that believe in the so called "Inherent accuracy" of the round, and that mentality is bleeding over into precision rifle.

Yes build the best loads you can. but there is no substitute for range time.

[longrange1]

There's a hole lotta truth to that statement right there. And your statement on case prep. There are benchrest people out there that believe in the so called "Inherent accuracy" of the round, and that mentality is bleeding over into precision rifle.

Yes build the best loads you can. but there is no substitute for range time.

i agree 100%...when i first started loading i did WAYYY to much research...after just being so overwhelmed with all the info on how to make the perfect load the right way to do load development the right equipment...primers...powders...seating depth...case prep...bullet prep and everything else you can think of i turned off the computer bought what i thought at the time was the best equipment and started loading and shooting.

once i had a handle on the loading part i went back and started looking at ways to improve my loads...ive turned necks...before firing then again after...ive uniformed primer pockets and flash holes...ive weighed and sorted brass by internal capacity...ive sorted bullets by weight and barring surface...ive trimmed meplats and tipped bullets...ive even weighed and sorted primers...once i weighed the brass shaving from each neck i turned LOL!!

so i have pretty much done EVERY prep that can be done...i shot out 1.5 260 barrels and a 300wm barrel just testing primers,powders and brass...primers to try and see which ones produced the most velocity/pressures,lowest ESs and SDs and powders to see which ones were temp sensitive,best velocities VS pressures and brass to see what brand would take the most abuse...neck sizing VS FL sizing...tumbled/clean brass VS untumbeled dirty brass(just wipe outsides)...i even had quick load for awhile.

ALL of the case and bullet prep i did was all done one step at a time and then shot at distance over a chrony so i could see the effects of each step and heres what i walked away with after about 1.5 years of testing/playing with all that...if i was a bench rest shooter that was getting paid to shoot i would do every bit of that case/bullet prep because when all done together it does make a difference and in bench rest and F-class i think it boils down to who loads the best ammo...you know being the good smith that you are there is only so much you can do to a gun.

with that said the best thing all that testing and playing did for me was LOTS of trigger time...i was going out 4 times a day some weekends...ive shot in 30+mph winds..snow..rain..105dges down to -5degs...the second best thing i learned from all of this is NONE of this makes enough difference when shooting tactical/PRS type shooting(which is what i mostly shoot)to waste my time on...i can tell you a trimmed and tipped 140g berger hybrid shot at 2850 out of a 260 remington will impact about 10"s higher than an untouched berger hybrid at 1000yds...i can also tell you i can not hold 10" at 1000yds off a barricade or tank trap or barrel LOL.


all of this over thought load development is funny to me...everyone has a better way and it all leads to the same end result...my biggest problem is a short attention span LOL...i get bored easy so after i find my comp load and my gun shoots i start to play with other bullets or powders...like today...ive got 10 121g flat lines loaded up(to try the 10 shot load development)and also 25 of my comp loads for practice.

as a side note...i was going to say the same thing about whiterabbits powder steps being to big at .5gs but i stopped arguing with ppl about all of this a long time ago.

[kcstott]

i agree 100%...when i first started loading i did WAYYY to much research...after just being so overwhelmed with all the info on how to make the perfect load the right way to do load development the right equipment...primers...powders...seating depth...case prep...bullet prep and everything else you can think of i turned off the computer bought what i thought at the time was the best equipment and started loading and shooting.

once i had a handle on the loading part i went back and started looking at ways to improve my loads...ive turned necks...before firing then again after...ive uniformed primer pockets and flash holes...ive weighed and sorted brass by internal capacity...ive sorted bullets by weight and barring surface...ive trimmed meplats and tipped bullets...ive even weighed and sorted primers...once i weighed the brass shaving from each neck i turned LOL!!

so i have pretty much done EVERY prep that can be done...i shot out 1.5 260 barrels and a 300wm barrel just testing primers,powders and brass...primers to try and see which ones produced the most velocity/pressures,lowest ESs and SDs and powders to see which ones were temp sensitive,best velocities VS pressures and brass to see what brand would take the most abuse...neck sizing VS FL sizing...tumbled/clean brass VS untumbeled dirty brass(just wipe outsides)...i even had quick load for awhile.

ALL of the case and bullet prep i did was all done one step at a time and then shot at distance over a chrony so i could see the effects of each step and heres what i walked away with after about 1.5 years of testing/playing with all that...if i was a bench rest shooter that was getting paid to shoot i would do every bit of that case/bullet prep because when all done together it does make a difference and in bench rest and F-class i think it boils down to who loads the best ammo...you know being the good smith that you are there is only so much you can do to a gun.

with that said the best thing all that testing and playing did for me was LOTS of trigger time...i was going out 4 times a day some weekends...ive shot in 30+mph winds..snow..rain..105dges down to -5degs...the second best thing i learned from all of this is NONE of this makes enough difference when shooting tactical/PRS type shooting(which is what i mostly shoot)to waste my time on...i can tell you a trimmed and tipped 140g berger hybrid shot at 2850 out of a 260 remington will impact about 10"s higher than an untouched berger hybrid at 1000yds...i can also tell you i can not hold 10" at 1000yds off a barricade or tank trap or barrel LOL.


all of this over thought load development is funny to me...everyone has a better way and it all leads to the same end result...my biggest problem is a short attention span LOL...i get bored easy so after i find my comp load and my gun shoots i start to play with other bullets or powders...like today...ive got 10 121g flat lines loaded up(to try the 10 shot load development)and also 25 of my comp loads for practice.

as a side note...i was going to say the same thing about whiterabbits powder steps being to big at .5gs but i stopped arguing with ppl about all of this a long time ago.

You may want to figure out what cured you and sell it over on the bench rest boards, there are guys going nuts chasing every possible variable.

My problem with the so called inherent accuracy thing is. yeah case shape may contribute to external ballistics (meaning potentially more o r less accurate) but when you're talking about the thousands of variables involved in reloading and shooting why look at one of the lowest contributing factors.

It should be as simple as.
1. select a good consistent proven bullet
2. select good consistent proven brass
3. select a powder that is not temperature sensitive
4. select a consistent primer
5. use a quality press and dies
6. measure powder as precisely and accurately as possible
7. seat your bullets without damaging the bullet and seat to within .002" of base to Ogive every time

then go shoot and have fun.

this will get you 98% of the way to perfection and the weighing cases, sorting bullets, trimming, tipping, etc might get you another 1% improvement.
I'm not shooting bench rest but I do shoot F class. and i can tell you that while who builds the best ammo is alway in the top five. where I shoot and many other ranges it comes down to who can read and adjust to the wind and keep on the 10 ring through out the day.

That said My name is Kerry and I'm a reloadaholic, My AnD milligram scale with the autothrow and auto trickle shipped yesterday I also bought some ASTM class 1 certified weights. With the check weights I was able to prove just how inaccurate the Gempro is.

[bsumoba]

It should be as simple as.
1. select a good consistent proven bullet
2. select good consistent proven brass
3. select a powder that is not temperature sensitive
4. select a consistent primer
5. use a quality press and dies
6. measure powder as precisely and accurately as possible
7. seat your bullets without damaging the bullet and seat to within .002" of base to Ogive every time

then go shoot and have fun.

this will get you 98% of the way to perfection and the weighing cases, sorting bullets, trimming, tipping, etc might get you another 1% improvement.
I'm not shooting bench rest but I do shoot F class. and i can tell you that while who builds the best ammo is alway in the top five. where I shoot and many other ranges it comes down to who can read and adjust to the wind and keep on the 10 ring through out the day.

.

I haven't seen your name before in F-Class. Do you just shoot locally?

I agree with everything you said about the ammo. But I disagree with you that the best F-class shooters are the best handloaders. We all generally make good ammo if you shoot enough. The question is whether we understand how to identify a good, stable, consis tent load from day to day. The best F-ClaSS shooters are great wind readers with a good shooting, consistent gun, consistent ammo and they know when to shoot and when not to shoot in a match.

Most people are not good enough to identify a good load because they shoot 100-200 yards. You can get away with a lot at that yardage. That's why BR guys can have a rather large varying charge weight and still shoot great groups.

The 10 shot test might be a good method, but if you do not understand proper reloading techniques to get consistent ammo or you are not a good trigger pulller, then this test is useless. If you are using a factory rifle, it might not be a good test because the gun is just not capable of shooting consistently.

[kcstott]

I haven't seen your name before in F-Class. Do you just shoot locally?

I agree with everything you said about the ammo. But I disagree with you that the best F-class shooters are the best handloaders. We all generally make good ammo if you shoot enough. The question is whether we understand how to identify a good, stable, consis tent load from day to day. The best F-ClaSS shooters are great wind readers with a good shooting, consistent gun, consistent ammo and they know when to shoot and when not to shoot in a match.

Most people are not good enough to identify a good load because they shoot 100-200 yards. You can get away with a lot at that yardage. That's why BR guys can have a rather large varying charge weight and still shoot great groups.

The 10 shot test might be a good method, but if you do not understand proper reloading techniques to get consistent ammo or you are not a good trigger pulller, then this test is useless. If you are using a factory rifle, it might not be a good test because the gun is just not capable of shooting consistently.

Dembroski Knows you.

Locally yes Local to me oceanside, I shoot at Pendleton. I have yet to Coalinga or Phoenix

Re read my last sentence. and i can tell you that while who builds the best ammo is alway in the top five. where I shoot and many other ranges it comes down to who can read and adjust to the wind and keep on the 10 ring through out the day.

That is pretty much on par with what you said.
Good ammo yes but wind reading is critical.

[longrange1]

You may want to figure out what cured you and sell it over on the bench rest boards, there are guys going nuts chasing every possible variable.

My problem with the so called inherent accuracy thing is. yeah case shape may contribute to external ballistics (meaning potentially more o r less accurate) but when you're talking about the thousands of variables involved in reloading and shooting why look at one of the lowest contributing factors.

It should be as simple as.
1. select a good consistent proven bullet
2. select good consistent proven brass
3. select a powder that is not temperature sensitive
4. select a consistent primer
5. use a quality press and dies
6. measure powder as precisely and accurately as possible
7. seat your bullets without damaging the bullet and seat to within .002" of base to Ogive every time

then go shoot and have fun.

this will get you 98% of the way to perfection and the weighing cases, sorting bullets, trimming, tipping, etc might get you another 1% improvement.
I'm not shooting bench rest but I do shoot F class. and i can tell you that while who builds the best ammo is alway in the top five. where I shoot and many other ranges it comes down to who can read and adjust to the wind and keep on the 10 ring through out the day.

That said My name is Kerry and I'm a reloadaholic, My AnD milligram scale with the autothrow and auto trickle shipped yesterday I also bought some ASTM class 1 certified weights. With the check weights I was able to prove just how inaccurate the Gempro is.

what made me stop was all the time spent at the reloading bench for gains made didnt add up...like i say i can not hold still enough to take advantage of the gains made so its a waste of time for the type of shooting i do...plus it got to the point that i didnt want to shoot because of all the work involved...i work 10-12hrs a day at my regular job i dont need a part time job loading LOL!!

I haven't seen your name before in F-Class. Do you just shoot locally?

I agree with everything you said about the ammo. But I disagree with you that the best F-class shooters are the best handloaders. We all generally make good ammo if you shoot enough. The question is whether we understand how to identify a good, stable, consis tent load from day to day. The best F-ClaSS shooters are great wind readers with a good shooting, consistent gun, consistent ammo and they know when to shoot and when not to shoot in a match.

Most people are not good enough to identify a good load because they shoot 100-200 yards. You can get away with a lot at that yardage. That's why BR guys can have a rather large varying charge weight and still shoot great groups.

The 10 shot test might be a good method, but if you do not understand proper reloading techniques to get consistent ammo or you are not a good trigger pulller, then this test is useless. If you are using a factory rifle, it might not be a good test because the gun is just not capable of shooting consistently.

i agree 100% and this is why i try to tell ppl to stick to simple load development and that ladders or this 10 shot load development is more for advanced shooters/loaders with higher end equipment.

i shot the 121g flat lines today at 425yds(much past that and i can not see holes in paper)and did it in the 10 shot load development style and i came away with no usable data...i had several flat spots but they are only .2gs apart not .6 or .8 and the ladder at 425 is no better as the first shot at 2992 was way high and the second shot at 2983 was near the bottom of the target and there is no usable water line.

oh well i tried it and am not impressed so i will stick to what i know works.

[bsumoba]

I don't believe in the 10 shot test. One, it takes more than a few rounds for a new barrel to settle down. In my experience, about 20 rounds is good. In nearly all my new barrels, they will copper up a bit at first, but after the throat is burnished more, the coppering will stop.

For me, I shoot the same barrel mfg and length, same powder, same bullet, same primer, etc. I own my reamer so load development is fast.

[longrange1]

[bsumoba]

You should shoot. You're there already, you might as well shoot.

In Open, we had something like 140+ shooters. In T/R, I think it was 88 shooters. It is a great field to shoot in.

Here were the SWN scores below.

Open

https://www.facebook.com/McMillanFiberglassStocks/photos/pcb.10156971972658368/10156971971708368/?type=3&theater

T/R

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208394185891968&set=pcb.10208394186491983&type=3&theater

Sling

https://www.facebook.com/McMillanFiberglassStocks/photos/pcb.10156972020698368/10156972019428368/?type=3&theater

[longrange1]

[kcstott]

what made me stop was all the time spent at the reloading bench for gains made didnt add up...like i say i can not hold still enough to take advantage of the gains made so its a waste of time for the type of shooting i do...plus it got to the point that i didnt want to shoot because of all the work involved...i work 10-12hrs a day at my regular job i dont need a part time job loading LOL!!



i agree 100% and this is why i try to tell ppl to stick to simple load development and that ladders or this 10 shot load development is more for advanced shooters/loaders with higher end equipment.

i shot the 121g flat lines today at 425yds(much past that and i can not see holes in paper)and did it in the 10 shot load development style and i came away with no usable data...i had several flat spots but they are only .2gs apart not .6 or .8 and the ladder at 425 is no better as the first shot at 2992 was way high and the second shot at 2983 was near the bottom of the target and there is no usable water line.

oh well i tried it and am not impressed so i will stick to what i know works.

Several flat spots that are .2gr apart? that is your continuous flat spot, I don't think you're interpreting your data correctly.

You are looking for 3-5 shots that are within 10-15 FPS of each other as you are increasing your powder charge by .2grs. that is your flat spot.

Then build five that are in the middle of the spot shoot for a group, if they don't group well work on seating depth.

[kcstott]

I don't believe in the 10 shot test. One, it takes more than a few rounds for a new barrel to settle down. In my experience, about 20 rounds is good. In nearly all my new barrels, they will copper up a bit at first, but after the throat is burnished more, the coppering will stop.

For me, I shoot the same barrel mfg and length, same powder, same bullet, same primer, etc. I own my reamer so load development is fast.

you can't do real load workup on a new barrel,

the 10 round load work up works but not on a brand new barrel. Keep in mind it's not a true 10 round load work up. it's just a simple way to stop the confusion of reading group size with multiple shots. inexperienced shooters try a load ladder and look at the groups like they are trying to read Russian.

load ten rounds close to your desired velocity a few above and below in .2-.3gr steps
chrono every round
find you 10-15 fps velocity plateau load five dead center of the powder charge range. about .020" off the lands
shoot for a group if they group good enough, you're done. if not work on seating depth.

it's not 10 rounds and done. But as you stated it's not for someone with imprecise reloading skills.
It was also not to replace a ladder or an OCW it's just gets you there faster. and on a round like the.408 CT where i'm shooting $3 bullets and only get 57 rounds per pound of powder with a 1200 round max barrel life. I don't have the time nor barrel life to test 50 to 100 rounds.

[bsumoba]

you can't do real load workup on a new barrel,
the 10 round load work up works but not on a brand new barrel. Keep in mind it's not a true 10 round load work up. it's just a simple way to stop the confusion of reading group size with multiple shots. inexperienced shooters try a load ladder and look at the groups like they are trying to read Russian.
.

In my experience, you can start load development on a barrel relatively quickly when you have a good gunsmith who knows how to chamber a barrel such that it leaves very little tool marks in the throat/lead area. In the first 5-8 rounds, I usually see a bit of coppering, which is a result of the throat area being a little rough and stripping copper jacket off the bullet and depositing it in the bore, usually at the muzzle area. I use the first 5-8 rounds to put the magneto on and get some speed numbers, to get the barrel close to zero'd in, and to burnish the throat area...3 things done in 5-8 rounds. I will clean at this point to get all the copper out. I will then shoot another 3-5 rounds and get a bit more speed data and to ensure that this is little to no copper now depositing in the muzzle area. Once I see no copper, I truly believe the barrel is ready for load development. The throat area is burnished and smooth and groups will almost always start getting smaller.

On a factory rifle, the burnishing of the throat area usually takes longer. The reamers are heavily used and the cutting quality starts to fall off. If you got a factory rifle with a new reamer, chances are better that you can "break-in" a barrel faster. Towards the end of a reamer's life...good luck.

load ten rounds close to your desired velocity a few above and below in .2-.3gr steps
chrono every round
find you 10-15 fps velocity plateau load five dead center of the powder charge range. about .020" off the lands
shoot for a group if they group good enough, you're done. if not work on seating depth.

Often times, it is very hard to see plateau's in velocity data. For example, yesterday I put on a new barrel on my tactical rifle, a 6 Dasher, 27" brux barrel. Went to the range and followed my method above with a couple changes. I had some extra rounds from my open gun dasher barrel (which I used the same reamer) so I shot these 4 rounds to get the gun sighted in and to burnish the throat area. I cleaned the barrel and the barrel looked great. Almost no coppering right off the get go and it cleaned really easy. So...off to getting velocity numbers with the magneto.

32.5 - 2848 (first shot after clean) / 2893 - no good ES to compare since first shot was on a clean barrel.
32.8 - 2892 / 2903 - ES of 11
33.0 - 2926 / 2920 - ES of 6
33.3 - 2944 / 2947 - ES of 3
33.6 - 2965 / (no 2nd shot as I saw a bit more pressure than I care for)

One would argue that maybe 32.5-32.8 would be the charge weight range to look at. Well at least in this barrel, that was not the case. 32.5-32.8 did not shoot well at all. My expectations of a dasher at 100 yards is basically one hole; that is what this cartridge is easily capable of. Now, 33.0 grain went into one big hole. Then, it started to open up again approaching 33.6 grains. A couple things I did take into account: one is I am using a small, efficient cartridge with somewhere in the order of 80-90 fps per grain of powder, and two, because of the small case, a smaller charge weight is usually needed to see the nodes. That being said, I have never shot a 6 Dasher out of this style barrel (med palma contour and 27"), so I opened up the charges to get a bigger picture.

What I am getting at is plateau's in velocity can be hard to see or might not even tell you anything in relation to how it shoots. My ES wouldn't tell you much either. My expectations of ES in the dasher are in the single digits. Well, 33.0 shot well, but 33.3 was smaller in ES, but 33.3 did not group as well as 33.0 gr.

My assessment of the day was 33.0 grains was probably going to be worth looking at. My next step would be to load 32.8-32.9-33.0-33.1-33.2 and see how each of these groups. If the POI shift is minimal, then chances are very good I am in a good charge weight spot with 33.0. I would probably do three more tests: Shoot a couple 5 shot groups to see how it groups at 100 yards, then shoot a 5-shot speed test to validate both speed and ES. My last test is to shoot it at distance, maybe even with a few different seating depths and see how it shoots. I like shooting local matches for this.

My load development can be done in 80-120 rounds and that could be with a match under its belt.

Take it for with its worth.

[longrange1]

I eFed up a load development ladder test

Several flat spots that are .2gr apart? that is your continuous flat spot, I don't think you're interpreting your data correctly.

You are looking for 3-5 shots that are within 10-15 FPS of each other as you are increasing your powder charge by .2grs. that is your flat spot.

Then build five that are in the middle of the spot shoot for a group, if they don't group well work on seating depth.

[bsumoba]

Need more info...

what yardage was this shot at?
was the magneto on the barrel?
what charge weight for each shot number?