Load data for cast pills? MBC

[Yetiultimate]

I picked up some cast and coated pills from Missouri Bullet Co, and the load data online for them is a little scarce, and none of my manuals has similar loads. Anyone here have experience or good recipes for the following:

9mm 115gr Small Ball with W231 and SPP
.45 ACP 230gr Soft Ball with W231 and LPP
8mm Mauser 205gr with Varget or 4350 and LRP

Thx.

[koehn,jim]

go to castboolits web site and they should have it

[noylj]

Pills? Really?
Get a Lyman manual and look for ANY lead bullet of the same weight and caliber and start at the start load.
Go to the powder supplier's web site and look for ANY lead bullet of the same weight and caliber and start at the start load.
Slug your barrels and be sure the bullets you are using are at least 0.001" larger than actual groove diameter. 18 BHN is NOT optimized and often means the bullet need to be 0.001" larger than softer bullets. None of your guns need more than 13 BHN and will happily shoot 10 BHN all day long.
The same thing applies to jacketed bullets--find load data for that weight and caliber and start at the start load and work up.
This question comes up all the time, and I always wonder why someone buys bullets without already having load data?

Next, you'll want someone to supply a COL for you.
Per Ramshot:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile
and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum ‘Start Load.’"

Your COL (Cartridge Overall Length) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood (or a few mils higher than where the head of an empty case aligns with the barrel, as all cases are too short and I prefer to minimize head space). After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop this round in the barrel and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
Making the inert dummy rounds means that you can verify die adjustments and ensure that your reloads will feed and chamber before you ever start to load "real" rounds.

[Yetiultimate]

Yeah, pills. You have a problem with my vernacular? Sorry, please forgive me for that while you tell me about your experience with these cast lead projectiles, to include the recipes you have found ideal for your uses.

Oh wait...you forgot to add that part, buddy.

[bigbossman]

Yeah, pills. You have a problem with my vernacular? Sorry, please forgive me for that while you tell me about your experience with these cast lead projectiles, to include the recipes you have found ideal for your uses.

Oh wait...you forgot to add that part, buddy.

As long as you don't call them "boolits". That just makes people sound retarded.


Take a look here for all kinds of load info:

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/cast-bullet-data-lookup

[CGT80]

Those there projectiles in that picture most likely are not boolits. My guns eat both bullets and boolits and I am working on an automated casting machine that will hold 100 pounds of lead and spit out lots of projectiles.........but, at that point, I won't know which term to use for them. Boolits or bullets? Maybe the boys at CastBoolits will help me out with that.

Pills are what I pop to help the neck and back pain.

That pic shows 124, not 115. 4.0 grains of win 231/hp 38 is great for a moly coated lead 124 in 9mm and will be close with the hi tech. For the AR 15, I run 4.2 grains of hp38 and the same 124 in 9mm.

For 45 acp and powder coated boolits, I use red dot powder. I don't remember the amount, but just look up a cast bullet load from the powder company and start low and work up. A bunch of my books are decades old and they are great for cast loads, especially for the rifles. Shotgun or pistol powder in the 30-30 and 30-06 with cast projectiles, or even jacketed, are very fun and low recoil, not to mention much cheaper to shoot.

Powder coated boolits have a bit more velocity than lead and wax lube and I would expect the same with the hi tech coating. PC will handle more velocity than wax lubed bullets as well, but high velocity isn't always more accurate with lead, based on what many other cast users have reported. You would have to find out more about how the coating holds up, if you are wanting hot loads.

[someoneeasy]

Those there projectiles in that picture most likely are not boolits. My guns eat both bullets and boolits and I am working on an automated casting machine that will hold 100 pounds of lead and spit out lots of projectiles.........but, at that point, I won't know which term to use for them. Boolits or bullets? Maybe the boys at CastBoolits will help me out with that.

Pills are what I pop to help the neck and back pain.

That pic shows 124, not 115. 4.0 grains of win 231/hp 38 is great for a moly coated lead 124 in 9mm and will be close with the hi tech. For the AR 15, I run 4.2 grains of hp38 and the same 124 in 9mm.

For 45 acp and powder coated boolits, I use red dot powder. I don't remember the amount, but just look up a cast bullet load from the powder company and start low and work up. A bunch of my books are decades old and they are great for cast loads, especially for the rifles. Shotgun or pistol powder in the 30-30 and 30-06 with cast projectiles, or even jacketed, are very fun and low recoil, not to mention much cheaper to shoot.

Powder coated boolits have a bit more velocity than lead and wax lube and I would expect the same with the hi tech coating. PC will handle more velocity than wax lubed bullets as well, but high velocity isn't always more accurate with lead, based on what many other cast users have reported. You would have to find out more about how the coating holds up, if you are wanting hot loads.

What is this automated casting machine that you use?

[noylj]

>please forgive me for that while you tell me about your experience with these cast lead projectiles, to include the recipes you have found ideal for your uses

Sorry, but really?
OK, I have been casting my own bullets for 43 years. I don't have "recipes," though I do have some bullet/powder combinations I like.
For 9x19, I prefer 115 and 124gn L-SWCs. I have never found an over-the-counter 9x19 gun to be any where near as accurate as a OTC .45 Auto.
With 115gn lead bullets, I like loads around 6.0-6.4gn of Power Pistol (this may be max or over max in YOUR gun with YOUR bullets). For 124gn L-SWCs, I like somewhere around 4.2-4.4gn of BA 9.5, 5.0-5.5gn Herco, and 5.2-5.7gn of Power Pistol (PP is the best in my guns for accuracy). Again, these may be max of over-max in your gun with your bullets.
For .45 Auto, nothing beats the RCBS 452-201-KT mold, though the H&G #68 is very close. RCBS changed the name of the mold, so they may have also changed the bullet. The commercial bullets, I prefer Zero swaged 200gn L-SWC and Precision Bullets swaged and coated 200gn L-SWCs with 4.5-5.1gn of 231/HP38. Bullseye, AA2, and Red Dot also work well.
PS: I have never fired a pill in any gun--just saying.

[Abenaki]

As long as you don't call them "boolits". That just makes people sound retarded. [/url]

I like boolits!

I aint retarded....Just a little slow


Typine this from my 80 year old Mothers basement!
Abenaki

[Whiterabbit]

You guys are making a mountain out of a molehill over the vernacular. One of you will have to man-up and move on, letting the more childish one have the last word. That's just a suggestion/opinion. Based on the posts, Yeti, I suggest you be the one to man-up and let noylj have the last word.

I picked up some cast and coated pills from Missouri Bullet Co, and the load data online for them is a little scarce, and none of my manuals has similar loads. Anyone here have experience or good recipes for the following:

9mm 115gr Small Ball with W231 and SPP
.45 ACP 230gr Soft Ball with W231 and LPP
8mm Mauser 205gr with Varget or 4350 and LRP

Thx.

My suggestion for the pistol cartridges: use any old cast lead data. Can't find any? Use plated bullet data. Can't find any? use jacketed data, starting smack in the middle and working up or down as needed. I'll bet $10 you won't see much of a difference between hardcast bullet performance in a pistol and jacket at closer distances with jacketed data. Another $10 says if you find actual data there will be a ton of overlap with jacketed data.

In short, IMO don;t worry about it too much. You're going to be trying a few charge weights anyways, so any data with a lead-containing bullet is gonna get you in the ballpark.

------------------

Other suggestion, from a guy who has cast and loaded for 7mm mauser, using H4350, give up before you even start. It's the wrong powder set (all your options) for the job.

You'll end up with keyholing at 50 yards and no accuracy.

You need to be a bit more gentle with cast in rifle. I suggest using:

-trailboss
-light charges of pistol powder, such as bluedot, 4198, etc
-case full of excessively slow powder, like 50BMG, 20mmVulcan surplus, etc.

My best results come from using trailboss and 4198. For 50 yard accuracy.

[jimmykan]

I have shot thousands of the MBC Softball and Smallball cast bullets, but this was before they offered Hi-Tek coating.

For the .45 230 grain Softball, I loaded 4.8 grains of Winchester 231. Made about 750 fps from a 5" 1911 barrel. 231 was not may favorite load. I got the same velocity from 3.8 grains of Hodgdon Clays, and it burned cleaner and recoiled softer.

For the 9mm 124 grain Smallball, I loaded 4.3 grains of Winchster 231. Made about 1050 fps from a 4.5" Glock 17 barrel. People kept telling me not to shoot these loads through a factory Glock barrel, but I saw no leading issues or kabooms after shooting through a 3000 bullet bundle.

I don't have an 8mm Mauser, but I have loaded the MBC #1 Whitetail (.309 Diameter, 165 Grain RNFP, Brinell 18)

Because it has a plain base with no way to add a gas check, this bullet did not shoot well when pushed faster than 1400 fps. I experienced poor accuracy and pretty bad lead fouling.

The similar Oregon Trail Laser Cast 170 grain RNFP with a rebated base that accepts Hornady gas checks did MUCH better when loaded to higher velocities.

Maybe the Hi-Tek coating will allow your cast Mauser bullet to perform well at higher velocities.

[Yetiultimate]

Yes, now that was the info I was curious about. Thank you to everyone that replied.

[stilly]

What is this automated casting machine that you use?

Ignore that. Unless you have the mechanical know-how + a cool set of welding skills and a few other tricks that CGT knows, you will not be building one of those, but you can buy one- they are several hundred dollars, I forgot, maybe a grand or two, but they cast bullets and that is all they do. But you need to have CLEAN lead and what not.

If you are in the business of making money or if you shoot as much as Mr. CGT80 does or even shoot the BIG stuff like he does, you should just stick to making pills the old fashion way. Most EVERYONE does that anyways. Just the lucky few that get to use the machines. But really, get some Lee 6 cavity molds and be done with it.

When making 9mm pills and .45 pills, I PC them and I find around 5.0gr is the magical number. 5.0gr of a LOT of stuff is a great .45 and it is a upper mid range for 9mm.

Get yourself a copy of BoLyCa or the Book of Lyman CAST manual (4th ed currently I think) and there are a few decent loads in there, else look at the Book of Lee (BoLee) and you should find data...

[someoneeasy]

Ignore that. Unless you have the mechanical know-how + a cool set of welding skills and a few other tricks that CGT knows, you will not be building one of those, but you can buy one- they are several hundred dollars, I forgot, maybe a grand or two, but they cast bullets and that is all they do. But you need to have CLEAN lead and what not.

If you are in the business of making money or if you shoot as much as Mr. CGT80 does or even shoot the BIG stuff like he does, you should just stick to making pills the old fashion way. Most EVERYONE does that anyways. Just the lucky few that get to use the machines. But really, get some Lee 6 cavity molds and be done with it.

When making 9mm pills and .45 pills, I PC them and I find around 5.0gr is the magical number. 5.0gr of a LOT of stuff is a great .45 and it is a upper mid range for 9mm.

Get yourself a copy of BoLyCa or the Book of Lyman CAST manual (4th ed currently I think) and there are a few decent loads in there, else look at the Book of Lee (BoLee) and you should find data...

Thanks Stilly,

I'll stick to my Lee 6 cavity molds.

[CGT80]

What is this automated casting machine that you use?

Stilly spoils all the fun

Here is a machine that another boolit caster made. I copied his machine and the commercial master caster machine. I have never seen one of these in person, until I built my own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2U1ujg_nzo

If you are really interested, you might have fun spending a few minutes looking through the the thread on building the machine: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-master-caster

Right now, it is hand operated and you can buy a master caster for $1,000 if you have more money than me but lack the time or skills to build your own. The automation part is in the works and another person has a touch screen and plc setup which seems to work great and is written just for these machines.

The master caster is blue just like the dillon presses and it works like a reloading press.....just move the handle and you are casting boolits.

The lee pot I was using is rated at 20 lbs, but holds only 16 pounds and has a 700 watt heating element, IIRC.

My pot should hold 100 pounds, according to my math, and the element is 2500 watts. I built all of it, with most of it being scrap I had laying around. The case is tig welded from stainless door kick plates, the pot is 6" 1/4" wall pipe and the bottom 3/8" plate which I tig welded together with two passes at around 400 amps of weld output. I don't think I did any of the welds with mig on this project.

Reloading and casting is a love hate relationship. When I do it, I want to get a lot done in short time.

A pic for a tease:








Since I sort of jacked the thread, the last pic is of the 30 cal boolits I use in the win 94 30-30 for silhouette competitions and in the 1926 win 54 bolt 30-06 for fun. The sizer wasn't heated up, so no lube. They get 3 or 4 lube grooves filled, not all. The boolit is tapered from 0.311" at the bottom to a smaller diameter at the top. This makes it a great choice for using it in many different chambers (it is more forgiving) and that is why I chose this mold. NOE makes some of the best molds you will find and they are out of Utah. I have other molds from MP in Europe, and lyman, rcbs, and a few lee.

Both of those cartridges are loaded with 9.6 grains of herco shotgun powder and the NOE Saeco #315 180 flat nose, but I have been using a plain base in the past, and bought a brass gas check version for the machine. Trailboss works great for low power rifle loads, but pistol and shotguns powders are more economical. Trail boss shines in the 460 mag pistol brass, since they are huge. Accurate 5744 is what I use for 44 mag level loads in the 460, and it is designed as a reduced rifle load powder.......might work for the OP in a rifle.

The best loads vary depending on the firearm and shooter who will use them, so I start low and work up. The minimum jacketed loads work fine for my cast loads, but don't run the hotter jacketed loads with cast. That 30-30 load is 1300 fps and leave some lead in the barrel since I got lazy and used range scrap to cast the last couple batches. Harder lead, gas checks, or coatings will reduce or eliminate the leading and the last two can let you run a bit softer lead.