Learning reloading... teach me your mojo.

[MarikinaMan]

I am on my third reloading batch for 223. I am using PRVI cases, Hornady 75gr HPBTs, and Varget.

My first batch had a 40 fps variance over 10 rounds. Wasnt very happy with it. From a conversation with a friend, I may have been looking at my analog scale wrong as I needed to stoop low to see the indicator line.

Second batch, I switched over to a digital scale and loading powder to a hundreth of a grain. I am getting a 20 fps variance over 10 rounds. No happy with it. Another friend mentioned that I should stop crimping (very lightly) my ammo.

Third batch coming up. If I don't crimp, do you think that will get me under 15fps?

What is needed to get within 5 fps? What sort of voodoo prayer do I need to recite?

Cases trimmed, deburred, case necks brushed, primer pockets too etc etc.


I am hitting stuff all the way to 600. Quite reliably at that. I am just trying to get better at this if I can.

Thanks!

[McGuiver]

Learning reloading... teach me your mojo.

I am on my third reloading batch for 223. I am using PRVI cases, Hornady 75gr HPBTs, and Varget.

My first batch had a 40 fps variance over 10 rounds. Wasnt very happy with it. From a conversation with a friend, I may have been looking at my analog scale wrong as I needed to stoop low to see the indicator line.

Second batch, I switched over to a digital scale and loading powder to a hundreth of a grain. I am getting a 20 fps variance over 10 rounds. No happy with it. Another friend mentioned that I should stop crimping (very lightly) my ammo.

Third batch coming up. If I don't crimp, do you think that will get me under 15fps?

What is needed to get within 5 fps? What sort of voodoo prayer do I need to recite?

Cases trimmed, deburred, case necks brushed, primer pockets too etc etc.


I am hitting stuff all the way to 600. Quite reliably at that. I am just trying to get better at this if I can.

Thanks!

If you want to shoot Benchrest or F-class shooting accuracy then...

Trim all your brass to same height.

Uniform primer pockets.

De-burr flash holes inside and out.

Sort your brass by capacity and weight (grouping)

Sort your bullets by weight (grouping)

Use Benchrest primers

Seat all your bullets based off ogive length you set.

Use N140 powder and trickle to final weight on analog scale.

Then you might get the SD you are looking for a given group.

Data below is for an AR platform.



How far are you looking to shoot? What firearm?

Here is Nosler's data... Looks like RL-15 to be the most accurate.






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[milotrain]

20fps spread is good, but certainly stop crimping. At 600 yards I'd quit with the load dev and spend more time practicing.

What targets are you shooting?

[highpower790]

I've heard a few people say good things about Hornady 75s and the 80gr AMAX using Varget.maybe that's some special combination,idk.
Don't crimp,powder drop everything +/- 2-3tenths isn't a big deal.Run max powder(more velocity,less sight changes) charges to cut the effect the wind will have on projectile.

[eric n]

15 ES is very good for .223.
20 ES is plenty good enough for 600 yds.
If you ever see 5, its a fluke.
Tune it and learn mirage and wind.
I haven't shot 75 bthp in a long time but with 80 vlds and 90 smks... there is no difference in vertical between 44 es and 14 es for me at 600.
Seriously. A 10 ES is the holy grail of .223. If you get it figured out, let us know. You will be a legend among us .223 gomers.

[MarikinaMan]

15 ES is very good for .223.
20 ES is plenty good enough for 600 yds.
If you ever see 5, its a fluke.
Tune it and learn mirage and wind.
I haven't shot 75 bthp in a long time but with 80 vlds and 90 smks... there is no difference in vertical between 44 es and 14 es for me at 600.
Seriously. A 10 ES is the holy grail of .223. If you get it figured out, let us know. You will be a legend among us .223 gomers.

good to know those benhmarks. Thanks

[Dooder]

Look for sd and not es. Sd is a more accurate read. You didn't mention the sample size either. Larger the sample the more true sd will be

On a side note, I have a thing with digital scales. I had a friend bring a couple over and had a couple of mine on my bench. I used a hornady auto charge to dispense a weight and then weighed the dish on all four scales, all four said something different. We tried multiple times and not once did all four read the same. This is because the average digital powder scale is +/- .1gr

Resolution is different than accuracy. Check the specs on your digital scale. You may not be getting as accurate as you think. If you want to get all crazy with weights try a mg scale. 1mg = .015gr

But the thing is that if you want to do hundreths of gr, you be breaking the sticks of varget to achieve that. And in the end it may not do much.

Imo the dimensional variances of the metallic components will have more effect then splitting sticks of powder.

If you chase the reloading demon then everything affects the finished cartridge. All the way down to table the press it mounted on. Thats why the bench guys use arbor presses. I'm trying to say that there's a point of diminishing returns on chasing numbers. If you have an es of 15 then you're in a pretty good spot. 20-25is considered good.

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[Whiterabbit]

I gave up on SD. If you have good population representation, half ES is going to be very very close to SD. If you really want a good gauge of your ammo, check SD and ES. If ES is way over double SD, then you have a quality control issue to get a handle on. If ES is about double SD, then your recipe may be in question, or you have another factor at play like neck tension, barrel heat, etc.

But really, IMO you should consider your goals. If it's 600 yard hits on steel, and you are there (tactical?) then you are done. Next, concentrate on making robust ammo, that will maintain hits but not need benchrest-level prep and QC to achieve that. Even if your 5 round scores if shooting 600y targets would be low 40's instead of high 40's.

See what I'm getting at?

Another example, my 460 S&W ammo has velocity ES near 100. That's OK because I only shoot up to 100 yards with it. at 25y I easily shoot 5 round 50's, even a 50-4x. At 100 they cna maintain high 40's. No need to load to benchrest standards. if that means that ammo trupets out at 200 yards, that's OK, I don't shoot 460 to 200 yards.

Numbers are just numbers. They either get you to where you want to go, or don't.

If you want, I can attach a neat "model" of ammo performance to demonstrate this idea but it just illustrates the text above.

[Whiterabbit]

second thing: If you can't get below ES 20, consider if your instrumentation is up to the task. Statistics states your measurement, for a really good model, should be able to measure 25% of what you want to really see. If you want 5 fps, then your instrumentation better be dead-nuts reliable down to the single foot per second. You sure your chrono can do that?

I don't believe most chronographs are really up to that task.

Dooder's right on with the scale. Which is why I suggest robust ammo. So you don't have to do that.

[Whiterabbit]

15 ES is very good for .223.
20 ES is plenty good enough for 600 yds.
If you ever see 5, its a fluke.
Tune it and learn mirage and wind.
I haven't shot 75 bthp in a long time but with 80 vlds and 90 smks... there is no difference in vertical between 44 es and 14 es for me at 600.
Seriously. A 10 ES is the holy grail of .223. If you get it figured out, let us know. You will be a legend among us .223 gomers.

Question for you sir.

You get no vertical between 44 es and 14 es at 600. Awesome!

And you even shoot secant vs tangent ogive, which is really what I'm after: Have you ever studied seat-depth sensitivity to ES between your VLD and SMK's? Literally: changing X seat depth on VLD changes ES by Y. Change X seat depth on SMK changes ES by Z. Is Y bigger than Z or smaller? You ever specifically study that?

[bazineta]

If you're down to an ES of 20 with 223, I'd call that more than good enough; it's not a long range round, and that level of consistency is going to be well within the needs of the ranges you'll be using it at.

So far as crimping, not crimping, etc., be cognizant of the philosophy of use for the round and firearm in question.

For example, shooting 284 Shehane for 1000-yard benchrest, hand feeding the rounds one at a time, you go for the whole ride in terms of prep, etc., and consistent neck tension becomes a real source of concern. On the other hand, 5.56 or .308 in a magazine, you can bet I'm going to crimp it; the last thing I want is the bullet seating changing under recoil.

[MarikinaMan]

^^^ you have something there. I am getting better results at 20es vs Aussie Outback and PRVI match ammo. Slightly better, but observable.

gonna try a batch with no crimp and if I see a small improvement call it done.

for tactical match ammo, running and gunning, I guess I will still wanna crimp, even if just a little bit?

JT

[eric n]

Question for you sir.

You get no vertical between 44 es and 14 es at 600. Awesome!

And you even shoot secant vs tangent ogive, which is really what I'm after: Have you ever studied seat-depth sensitivity to ES between your VLD and SMK's? Literally: changing X seat depth on VLD changes ES by Y. Change X seat depth on SMK changes ES by Z. Is Y bigger than Z or smaller? You ever specifically study that?

Sorry, no I haven't looked for a correlation in seating and ES.
I don't get to hung up on the technical #s. I do use a chrony to get data for reference and diagnostics but I let the target dictate the load.
I used the 44es as an example because it shot better then a few loads with lower #s.
An easy excersise is to run different extreme spreads through jbm at the distance you want to shoot. Couple that with the type of rest you are using and your ability to see mirage value, changes, trees in the way, berms making up drafts/down drafts, boils, etc... Will that extra .100 moa really make a difference? At 600 with a .223? Gets lost in the atmospheric noise for me.
Actually, 1 moa gets lost in the noise for me over 20 shots the vast majority of the time. Stupid wind

[Whiterabbit]

Excellent. Thank you.

[SoCalGoldenBearsHPRClub]

I am on my third reloading batch for 223. I am using PRVI cases, Hornady 75gr HPBTs, and Varget.

My first batch had a 40 fps variance over 10 rounds. Wasnt very happy with it. From a conversation with a friend, I may have been looking at my analog scale wrong as I needed to stoop low to see the indicator line.

Second batch, I switched over to a digital scale and loading powder to a hundreth of a grain. I am getting a 20 fps variance over 10 rounds. No happy with it. Another friend mentioned that I should stop crimping (very lightly) my ammo.

Third batch coming up. If I don't crimp, do you think that will get me under 15fps?

What is needed to get within 5 fps? What sort of voodoo prayer do I need to recite?

Cases trimmed, deburred, case necks brushed, primer pockets too etc etc.


I am hitting stuff all the way to 600. Quite reliably at that. I am just trying to get better at this if I can.

Thanks!

If you have a 556 or wylde chamber, this is the standard Service Rifle load - use 24 gr. or 24.5 gr. of Varget with the Hornady 75 gr. BTHP.

Trim you cases 1.750" or 1.752"

Use Rem 7.5 BR, CCI 450, or CCI BR4.

Seat to an OAL of 2.25" and don't crimp.

Use LC or WCC cases.

There is no need to square the primer pockets or ream the flash hole.

More importantly, shoot more, the more you shoot the better you become!