Chart or Reference for different powders?

[orangeusa]

While some books say hodgdon HP38=W231 are the same - they are not to me . Same with H110 same as W296 .
They are supposed to be made by same company , but I got different results during powder shortage last year .
I don't know or really care if they are made in same place or just licensed with same formula .
Any one who has a couple of reloading books - look up the 45 ACP and the 50 AE -same bullet / different grain weights .

I am not going to argue about the above, you have seniority. For the loads I do, I tried both according to recipe, and they were the same weights. I only compared HP38 and W231, since I don't have W296.

HP38 and W231 performed similarly, but have a slightly different smell. The word is equivalent, not identical. Mostly on 45ACP and 45Colt.

.

[tonyjr]

That was my point - equivalent , not identical . Don't go pouring one into the other thing they are the same .

[Bill Steele]

I have always felt HP38 and W231 were very different. I usually found HP38 to be between a buck and $.50 a pound less than W231...

I have always used the exact same load data for either.

On the W296/H110 debate, I always thought of them as being exactly equal, usually about the same price, definitely the same load data. Magnum primers and high load density, always.

[tonyjr]

Last year when powder was hard to find , my nephews bought both W-231 and W-296 .
W-231 smells different and seems to soot up barrel .
W-296 seemed to smell different , but another person was using his 44 at same time . The flash in my 50 AE is more pronounced w / H110 .
I only use what is left of W-296 in the 357 [ my nephews shoot it a lot- ]
Last year scared me and I hope I have enough H110 for a couple of years .
I am saving the little I have of HP38 for the 25and 32 ACPS . [ less than 1/2 bottle . ]
I am using CFE instead . My biggest problem is I reload for 6 nephews and 2 nieces [ yes they help - but know not to touch machine when I am not here ]
Since powder became scarce - I told them when they go to range - take an extra 35 dollars and buy another pound of powder .
If the winchester powders are the same to you - great , winchester powders are generally cheaper and that leaves me more hodgdon .
Right now I / we reload 12 calibers - soon will be 14 - one nephew want an AR in 223 and other wants one in 308 . I told them to buy guns now and I will get the dies .
7th edition of Hornady page 929 list H110 at 27.7 gr - W-296 at 27.8 for 50 AE
Max is H110 at 33.7 gr - W-296 at 33.0 for 50 AE .
It does not list hp-38 for the 45 ACP - BIG reason to have more than one reloading book
My old Hodgdon manual [ 3 ring notebook ] Page130 45 min ACP = 5.2 max 5.9
for hp38.
My old Hodgdon manual , page 133 lists 231 min at 6.3 and max at 5.8
It does not list W-296 only H110 - min at 29 - max at 32.5 gr . It lists H4227 but I don't like that powder either
HP-38 burn rate is listed at 18 - 231 = 19
H110 = 39 and W296 is 40
If your books say other wise , please list the name and if I don't have that book , I will get it .
My other reloading manuals are down stairs in garage with machine . I always check new loads in books [ at least 2 have to say same thing - I hate mis-prints ]

[Bill Steele]

Last year when powder was hard to find , my nephews bought both W-231 and W-296 .
W-231 smells different and seems to soot up barrel .
W-296 seemed to smell different , but another person was using his 44 at same time . The flash in my 50 AE is more pronounced w / H110 .
I only use what is left of W-296 in the 357 [ my nephews shoot it a lot- ]
Last year scared me and I hope I have enough H110 for a couple of years .
I am saving the little I have of HP38 for the 25and 32 ACPS . [ less than 1/2 bottle . ]
I am using CFE instead . My biggest problem is I reload for 6 nephews and 2 nieces [ yes they help - but know not to touch machine when I am not here ]
Since powder became scarce - I told them when they go to range - take an extra 35 dollars and buy another pound of powder .
If the winchester powders are the same to you - great , winchester powders are generally cheaper and that leaves me more hodgdon .
Right now I / we reload 12 calibers - soon will be 14 - one nephew want an AR in 223 and other wants one in 308 . I told them to buy guns now and I will get the dies .
7th edition of Hornady page 929 list H110 at 27.7 gr - W-296 at 27.8 for 50 AE
Max is H110 at 33.7 gr - W-296 at 33.0 for 50 AE .
It does not list hp-38 for the 45 ACP - BIG reason to have more than one reloading book
My old Hodgdon manual [ 3 ring notebook ] Page130 45 min ACP = 5.2 max 5.9
for hp38.
My old Hodgdon manual , page 133 lists 231 min at 6.3 and max at 5.8
It does not list W-296 only H110 - min at 29 - max at 32.5 gr . It lists H4227 but I don't like that powder either
HP-38 burn rate is listed at 18 - 231 = 19
H110 = 39 and W296 is 40
If your books say other wise , please list the name and if I don't have that book , I will get it .
My other reloading manuals are down stairs in garage with machine . I always check new loads in books [ at least 2 have to say same thing - I hate mis-prints ]

There is a YouTube interview with Hodgkin Jr. out there where he says they are identical. He states they keep the two brand names for brand loyalist purposes only. Your concerns are not well founded. Any recipe you find for W296 that isn't a misprint will work fine for H110. Any recipe that isn't a misprint that works for W231 will work equally well for HP38.

But there are more reloading superstitions out there today than there was 30 years ago, thanks to the Internet, so do whatever makes you happy.

Jeez Louise.

[stilly]

Hehehe. I know what you mean Bill. I have a botle of Win296 that I WILL NOT TOUCH because it is NOT H-110 and The BoLee said you must use magnum primers with W296, but it never said that for H-110...

[Bill Steele]

Hehehe. I know what you mean Bill. I have a botle of Win296 that I WILL NOT TOUCH because it is NOT H-110 and The BoLee said you must use magnum primers with W296, but it never said that for H-110...

It is interesting, the same person who looks up loads in two different (or more) books to get a start point for a new load and is not confused when two different numbers are presented for the same exact brand powder. Then is confused when the same powder is sold under two different labels and may have slightly different results printed in different books or the same book. Ballisticians testing loads get slightly different results for the same powder from the same bottle on different days.

On the magnum primer issue with W296 and H110, they are generally called out for magnum primers as the powder is pretty pressure sensitive when it comes to getting reliable and complete burn (at least as ballisticans who are testing it feel about it). That is why some loads list only a max and state "do not reduce" while a different book (different ballistician, different test day), may list a start and max for the same load.

I think only Richard Lee speaks of being smoat by higher forces if you don't use magnum primers with these powders. But most list magnum primers (if they list the primer used at all) as what was used in the load data.

Someone is almost sure to come along soon and speak of the known risk of "flashover kaboom" when using W296/H110. They may even go the extra mile for the myth and state they have personally experienced it. I wish I could remember the hand loading article where the chief ballistician for Hodgdon explains this myth and its origins. His conclusion after extensive testing trying to recreate the phenomenon was people reduced the load, burn became unreliable, they stuck a bullet with one round, then proceeded to load another which predictablely, as Murphy would expect, provided a reliable burn and subsequent kaboom. Being human, they immediately overlooked their error and assumed the powder had done something evil and surprising. This myth, like many others, seem to have gained some real steam when the Internet became popular....

[lostinsurf]

Hey OP,
I think you are looking for a single source to describe the different powders strengths and limitations. I have looked myself and never found anything.

There are descriptions from manufacturers for one powder. They don't include limitations, only items that rise to the level of warnings.
Manuals are great for load data and education; but not for comparing. They don't have this.
You received advice to get more sources. Those sources don't have what you're looking for either.

One poster wrote:
"For magnum pistol rounds, 2400 is a really good and versatile choice. It can even be used on hot non-magnum rounds. If you want a giant fireball and big kick, go H110, which is same as W296."
These are the descriptions for comparing.

I have started a collection of internet folk lore and unknown-worth opinions. So all of these are appropriated from other posts. Some are seen often, so what? DO NOT TRUST THE FOLLOWING!


Here is my current working document.
W231 and HP-38 (coated, flattened ball) are the same and produces accurate mid-range lower pressure target loads that produce milder recoil. Loved by 38special crowd.

Bullseye is a small flake powder and meters with less than .1 gr variance. Bullseye can produce very accurate target loads (more accurate than W231/HP-38) but because it is faster burning than W231/HP-38, felt recoil generated is more snappy. Bullseye downloads well (shoots accurate down to start charge) and is a popular powder with Bullseye match shooters (hence the name) is there a grey BE haze?

Power Pistol is small flake and for full power loads, or may be extruded?

Clays is capable of producing accurate light target loads. Cleaner!

Titegroup burns hot (leading?) and Violent (spiky chamber pressure build up) at near max load data with very narrow load range for many loads (some may consider the start charge to be already near max) . popular powder with many match shooters. titegroup gets a bit temperamental at the upper end of the charge weights with heavy 45 bullets. Titegroup also has a good reputation for being incredibly uncaring and insensitive to powder position. small load range for 38 - 3.2g up to 3.8g Precision Bullets says TG and n310 can melt the propretary coating on their bullets

Unique versatile for most pistol calibers at high to full power loads (to get clean). The "new" Unique (with a silver ellipse) is advertised as cleaner burning. said to meter very poorly.

IMR Trail Boss – Large, extruded donut shape, fluffy. Treated so it meters well. A powder designed for pistol caliber with lead bullets (cowboy loads). Some loadings for rifle and for jacketed bullets. It fills to the top of the case; but, Do Not compress, or can get spiked pressures. Dirty?

IMR 4227 – Similar to H4227, Hodgdon says to use the same data. Slow burning, good for medium to large caliber, 357 mag & above. One of the most accurate powders available. Does best when compressed. Makes a big boom with muzzle flash that will singe a target at 5 yards. Meters better than 7625, almost as good as #2? Dirty?

Vitahvouri N110 load at less than max, N-110 will back down smoothly into mid range. Cleaner

HS - 6 like many powders need pressure to be up there to burn clean. Mid range loads.

2400 is versatile and for mid range loads.

H110 and W296 are for magnum loads. Do not download. Use magnum primers. Big fireball.


slower burning powders tend to burn more efficiently at high-to-near max load data. Use less than mid range load data with slower burning powders and you get sooty cases, poor powder burn and decreased accuracy.

In fairness, I should point out that perceived recoil is also affected by the RATE at which that recoil impulse is delivered. I think you may be talking at that by your reference to "snappy" recoil. Sometimes I hear guys refer to it as the difference between a "kick" and a "shove." When talking about different smokeless propellants, however, the differences are so small as to be overwhelmed by the affects of projectile and firearms weight, projectile velocity, etc.

lead, plated, and jacketed. Lead and plated need to stay under 1000fps or 1250fps or leading can occur. Gas checks and correct diameter bullets can mitigate the fouling. Light crimp or the plating can be penetrated and come off.

bullet differences can make CUP spike double at close velocity - Hodgdon data center 357 mag
158g cast lswc 4.5 titegroup 19,300 CUP 1028
180 NOS part 5.0 titegroup 38,100 CUP 948
170 SIE JHC 5.4 titegroup 34,700 CUP 1031
only 22g difference in weight between 158 and 180 (+.5g ) but twice the CUP. Nosler looks like a rifle round, very long.

For rifles and semi-autos, COL is minimum to stop a large jump to rifling. For revolvers, COL implies the specific bullet tested has not been seated so deeply as to cause pressure spikes from reducing the volume in the case. Reduce loads if crimp over top.

Marlin 1894 should never shoot conical or pointed rounds, risks chainfire in the loading tube. ? Micro groove rifling needs at least 158g and up for accuracy.

If cast, then needs Gas Check or leading.
Published loads for 240g lead in 44 Mag (2010 powder valley prices):
Cost/100 = $0.96 Alliant Promo ---> 6.5 grains; 905 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $1.06 Alliant Bullseye ---> 6 grains; 894 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $1.14 Alliant Red Dot ---> 6.5 grains; 905 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $1.20 Hodgdon Clays ---> 6.2 grains; 940 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $1.23 Alliant Green Dot ---> 7 grains; 901 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $1.23 Alliant Unique ---> 7 grains; 899 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $1.66 Winchester AutoComp ---> 8 grains; 996 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $1.76 IMR 700-X ---> 9.5 grains; 1185 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $1.78 IMR Trail Boss ---> 7.3 grains; 917 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $1.86 Hodgdon Titegroup ---> 10 grains; 1288 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $2.08 Hodgdon Universal ---> 10.2 grains; 1276 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $2.12 Hodgdon HP-38 ---> 11 grains; 1334 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $2.28 Winchester 231 ---> 11 grains; 1334 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $2.54 IMR 800-X ---> 13.4 grains; 1395 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $2.60 Ramshot Enforcer ---> 12.3 grains; 1222 fps. (255 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $2.60 Ramshot True Blue ---> 12.3 grains; 1222 fps. (255 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $2.76 IMR SR 7625 ---> 10.7 grains; 1190 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $3.09 Vihtavuori N320 ---> 9.6 grains; 1014 fps. (248 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $3.38 Accurate No. 7 ---> 16.3 grains; 1341 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $3.79 Alliant 2400 ---> 20 grains; 1390 fps. (250 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $4.18 Accurate No. 9 ---> 20.2 grains; 1426 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $4.83 Hodgdon H110 ---> 22 grains; 1368 fps. (325 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $4.93 Winchester 296 ---> 22 grains; 1368 fps. (325 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $5.26 IMR 4227 ---> 22 grains; 1310 fps. (240 gr lead)
Cost/100 = $6.77 Accurate 5744 ---> 24 grains; 1446 fps. (240 gr lead)


We really need a spreadsheet of general powder characteristics that we could re-sort for different lists. Probably leave out bullet type, weight, velocity as that would make it too voluminous. Column headers like Company, Powder, Type, Burn rate, low CUP, high CUP, spiky, dirty, accurate, Use, Primer, weight/volume, meters, cost/round, versatile, fireball, downloads.

Please rip on any of the above. I need the feedback.

[tonyjr]

Nice chart . I gave up on cast 20-25 years ago . [ to much leading ]
I tried plated and coated - plated almost a blue ring of fire. Coated a pink / redess flame . Both were dirty in the piston on the 50 AE after about 20 rounds .
Someone offered to sell me 10 plated and coated of 357 and 44 . Not as dirty - gas piston but still colored smoke . So - no thank you . [ If you care H110 and CCI mag primers .
All I / we can do is tell people what we think , our results . Like buying a car - everyone has their own ideas - cost , brand .

[Fishslayer]

There are plenty of burn rate charts and even better... cross reference charts that will tell you which powder has the same burn rate. Those will give you a general idea. Burn rate is only one characteristic on any powder.

The old handgun powder trinity was/is Bullseye, Unique and either 2400 or H110 depending on your preference. These will cover just about any handgun caliber. If you don't know why you need three powders or why one would be better for your particular caliber/load then you need to do some more reading.

A burn rate or cross reference chart is a good place to start your research. So is the internet but proceed with caution and check multiple sources including the MFR website before using any data.

Learn to activate your BS filter when digesting message board anecdotes re some person's pet load or powder. People can develope pretty strong opinions based on misperceptions.

[NukleusX]

Glad I sub'd to this thread, learning a lot in what you guys have to share. Thanks!

[orangeusa]

How about adding that you have no idea of what you are talking about. My quote was a accurate. What info can you impart to us ? What you presented was anecdotes, and data. No information.

.

[rojocorsa]

For a general burn rate chart, I like this one: http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloadin...echart2011.pdf

A reloading manual is best. I see a lot of people trying out different powders and that is fine, but if you keep it simple, there are powders that are just staples in a reloaders room:

9mm - Unique, Hp-38, W231, CFE Pistol
38 Special - Unique, Hp-38, W231, CFE Pistol
40 cal - W231, Power Pistol, Unique, Hp-38
10mm - Power Pistol, Accurate #9
45cal - Bullseye, Unique, W231

.223/5.56 - H335, Benchmark, 8208XBR, Varget, RE15
.308 - Varget, RE15, H4895, 8208XBR, IMR4064


You can see patterns emerging...So what do I use?

Unique / HP-38 for my 9mm and 38 Special
H110 for my 357 Mag
Accurate #9 for my 10mm
H335 for 55gr bullets in .223/5.56
Varget for .223 with 77gr bullets and .308 with 175gr bullets
H4350 for 6.5 creedmoor and 6 Dasher. I could also use this in my 284 Shehane
H4831SC for 284 Shehane
H1000 for 338 Edge.

I have 9 powders that cover all of my shooting needs, and I shoot quite a few cartridges ranging from pistol all the way to my 338 edge shooting 300gr bullets.

This is helpful. Thanks!!!

Hey OP,
I think you are looking for a single source to describe the different powders strengths and limitations. I have looked myself and never found anything.

This is exactly what I was trying to ask and I will admit that I didn't articulate it very well when I made the original inquiry. I mean, there are so many propellants out there that you can get lost if you don't know where to start.

Right now I'm only interested in loading .45 ACP and 9mm. It seems like what I want are something like Unique or HP38/231 powders. (I'd like to share the powder to keep costs and logistics down.

[Fishslayer]

Right now I'm only interested in loading .45 ACP and 9mm. It seems like what I want are something like Unique or HP38/231 powders. (I'd like to share the powder to keep costs and logistics down.

I've only recently had a need for a medium powder like Unique. I went with BE86 which is Power Pistol with a flash suppressant added which takes it's burn rate very close to Unique. When I bought it Unique in 8 pounders was unobtanium.

The only knock on Unique (going back to before I was born) has always been that it's dirty & meters poorly. BE86 has a bit smaller flakes & I've been amazed at how clean my brass is, even with fairly low pressure target loadings in .45ACP, .45LC & .44 Special. It meters dead nuts in my Lee Auto Disc.

Unique has always been known for being versatile and has a loyal following. BE86 is fairly new but it's getting it's fans as well.

Hey OP,
I think you are looking for a single source to describe the different powders strengths and limitations. I have looked myself and never found anything.

Even burn rate charts vary a bit from one to another. As we know, burn rate is only one factor, but it's really not all that difficult after one has a solid grasp of the relationships of burn rate, projectile weight, case volume, etc.

Someone named the characteristic of a pressure curve becoming "spikey" near max pressures but I don't recall what it is. IMO that's probably the one factor besides burn rate that's important to us. I'm sure you could find that info if you really wanted it. Good lucking getting a MFR to tell you their powder is touchy.

[tonyjr]

A really big thing is what is sold close to you .
Support your LGS or it will be gone . Here , no one even carries
8 lbs any more . Way to many powders to get stuck with something
no one buys .
A good place to start is at the range . Talk to the guy picking up his / her cases .