OCW method , my first honest try . Come take a look and help .

[Metal God]

Hello

I was part of another thread a little while back that talked about the OCW method . To be honest I'm a skeptic because I've had many questions that never get answered fully or to my satisfaction .

That said I went ahead and gave it a try .

Load

308 Win
168gr Hornady BTHP
IMR 4895
LC-12-LR
Fed GMM primers

Charges

41.4----- FPS = 2558 , 2560 , 2598
41.8----- FPS = 2634 , 2565 , 2640
42.2----- FPS = 2628 , 2652 , 2658
42.6----- FPS = 2669 , 2663 , 2673
43.0----- FPS = 2710 , 2695 , 2679
43.4----- FPS = 2675 , 2744 , 2665

I don't like those velocities but I have done other test that show how I hold the rifle could give me some of those swings/numbers . so I'm not putting to much into those velocities right now . Consistent rifle hold has been an issue for me for quite some time . It's harder to see on target but often does show up on the chrono .

Target set at 200yds. Sorry I forgot to adjust my scope so everything is high . I almost adjusted the scope after the first shot bought figured that would exclude that group and I did not want to do that . The 42.2gr group had that far right shot called right . Just plain old yanked the shot . Not sure what to do when you know you blew one of the shots ??? Is that a valid group anymore ??



So what does these targets say to you and where is my OCW ?? My guess is between 42.6 & 43.4

[GSLapua]

Your poi shifts are very similar between 43.0 and 43.4. I would work around that 43.4 area. .1 grain in each direction. A lot of people have good success with 43.6 grains of 4895 with 168 grain bullets.

[Sir Toast]

I'd go with the 42.6 first and the 42.2 second. They have the least amount of vertical variations. First, I'd double check by running some 42.6, 42.5, 42.7 and 42.2, 42.1 and 42.3 rounds to really dial it in.

Watch for the vertical movement in the shots.

remember, if you change anything, you change everything once you run the test.

[CSACANNONEER]

I'd get a better rest system and follow Sir Toast's advise.

[Metal God]

I'd get a better rest system and follow Sir Toast's advise.

You say this why ?? I like to test the way I'll shoot . IMHO it does not help to test in a way you will never shoot . My rest was a front and rear bag . That's how I shoot most of the time or bi-pod and rear bag so that's how I test .

All of those groups are right around moa , couple little over couple little under . From what I understand of this method , I should now be able to tighten those groups up quite a bit with seating depth . At least that's what I heard was so great about this method . I figure I'll be shooting 1/4 moa in no time lol .

FWIW I have the measurements of the centers of the triangles
41.4 is a straight line so I'm not sure where the center is ?
41.8 - 2.340 high x .040 left
42.2 - 2.040 high x .610 right
42.6 - 3.040 high x .520 right
43.0 - 2.825 high x .255 right
43.4 - 3.045 high x .725 right

[GSLapua]

Not sure what to do when you know you blew one of the shots ??? Is that a valid group anymore ??

If you had a quality rest or sled you wouldn't have pull that shot, or others that you don't even know you pulled. Then you would not be wondering what to do with that grouping. If you take human error out of your testing you will get more accurate results and data to analyze.

[Metal God]

If you had a quality rest or sled you wouldn't have pull that shot, or others that you don't even know you pulled.

I understand your point and is why I've always shot 5 and 10 round groups in load development . A ten shot group don't lie or misrepresent your load .

Using a sled or other rest that removes the shooter would make a 3 shot group more exceptable I guess . Interesting

[CSACANNONEER]

You say this why ?? I like to test the way I'll shoot . IMHO it does not help to test in a way you will never shoot . My rest was a front and rear bag . That's how I shoot most of the time or bi-pod and rear bag so that's how I test .

All of those groups are right around moa , couple little over couple little under . From what I understand of this method , I should now be able to tighten those groups up quite a bit with seating depth . At least that's what I heard was so great about this method . I figure I'll be shooting 1/4 moa in no time lol .

FWIW I have the measurements of the centers of the triangles
41.4 is a straight line so I'm not sure where the center is ?
41.8 - 2.340 high x .040 left
42.2 - 2.040 high x .610 right
42.6 - 3.040 high x .520 right
43.0 - 2.825 high x .255 right
43.4 - 3.045 high x .725 right

I say that because, you are testing the ammunition and not your shooting techniques. Remember that even rest systems are not perfect but, if you get a good system together and use it properly, it will give you much more consistent results than just shooting off little bags. BTW, you hadn't said how you were shooting but, by the shape of the groups, I thought you were not using the best rest system or you weren't using it properly. I bet, with a better rest system, you will see a 25-50% reduction in your groups size, specially, in your horizontal/windage.

[Good2goDD]

Do you inhale and hold your breath when pull/press the trigger, or after you exhale?

[Metal God]

Yes

[waveslayer]

the OCW test was designed ed for 100 yards and you are looking for a node. based on your pics the node from your loads are the 42.2 range up to 42.6 and a new node is starting at 43.6.

if you want to redo the test at 100 yards, do .3 grain increments at the 43.4. do this
43.1
43.4
43.7
44

then post that it PM me. you are looking for a node with a good size grouping meaning not too much dispersion. remember at 200 the wind can play a factor as well as how you are shooting it.

then do a seating depth test. once you narrow it down to 2 or 3 loads maybe even one, take it to 200, 300 or whatever and retest.

what questions did you have about the OCW test. just look up Dan Newberry and he explains it all.

then after that test some primers etc.

what velocity did you want? what's your rig set up?

use a bipod, load it and have a good rear bag. also, don't press the trigger on the exhale or inhale, bad advice. you press on the natural respiratory pause, that's in between breathes.

[Metal God]

I read the inhale exhale post wrong then answered . I fully inhale then exhale about 1/2 to 3/4 hold then press in between heart beats if I can . I think I could have had a smaller aim point in this test . The center circle was a tad bigger then my cross-hairs . I felt I had a good POA but It could likely have been better .

Wave :

I like those increments . I was already there in my head I think . I almost always get "my" pressure sign in load development when I get at max charge . That is a sticky bolt lift but did not get that in this test . Max book charge is 43.3 so I'll likely be able to go another .7 or so .

what questions did you have about the OCW test. just look up Dan Newberry and he explains it all.

I could go on & on with questions .

Only 3 shots are going to give your likely groups center/mean ??? No not likely .

The Nodes are to show a less temperamental pressure range for less vertical stringing at longer range as well as temp changes , correct ??? You're not going to see that at 100 yards . I would have shot these at 300 but the wind idea made me do it at 200 .

Dan claims you "may be able to find your load , not node but your final load in as little as 20 shots . I call BS on that . If you read his instructions it becomes obvious that's not likely to happen . Example : lets say I confirmed a node in those test . Everybody says I now start testing again in smaller increments to dial in the node . After that I start working on seating depth . So I'm at 35 shots now , another 15 or 20 to dial in the node then another 20 or thirty in seating depth test . We're pushing 70 shots at that point . No wait I might be changing primers and running more test . I can easily find a fantastic load in that many shots with a traditional load development .

The instructions say start 10% below max charge then load three rounds moving up in increments of a % amount . In my this case that dropped my start charge to 39gr for the three round increment pressure test rounds . I then started the actual node testing at 41.4 . That's all well and good until you see that the start charge in the Hornady manual is like 35gr . How can anyone claim this is an OCW test when the test it self EXCLUDES 75% of the charges you can use right from the get go . What if my OCW is actually in the 38gr to 39gr area ???

If seating depth is SOOOOO important why is it that loads I developed 2500rds ago still shoot great in my rifle . I have not change the COAL but my throat has eroded .070+ . If seating depth is so critical should I not have to chase the throat erosion in order to keep the same accuracy ??

Those are just a couple questions off the top of my head that have not been answered fully or at least to a point they are no longer in question .

[waveslayer]

I read the inhale exhale post wrong then answered . I fully inhale then exhale about 1/2 to 3/4 hold then press in between heart beats if I can . I think I could have had a smaller aim point in this test . The center circle was a tad bigger then my cross-hairs . I felt I had a good POA but It could likely have been better .

Wave :

I like those increments . I was already there in my head I think . I almost always get "my" pressure sign in load development when I get at max charge . That is a sticky bolt lift but did not get that in this test . Max book charge is 43.3 so I'll likely be able to go another .7 or so .



I could go on & on with questions .

Only 3 shots are going to give your likely groups center/mean ??? No not likely .

The Nodes are to show a less temperamental pressure range for less vertical stringing at longer range as well as temp changes , correct ??? You're not going to see that at 100 yards . I would have shot these at 300 but the wind idea made me do it at 200 .

Dan claims you "may be able to find your load , not node but your final load in as little as 20 shots . I call BS on that . If you read his instructions it becomes obvious that's not likely to happen . Example : lets say I confirmed a node in those test . Everybody says I now start testing again in smaller increments to dial in the node . After that I start working on seating depth . So I'm at 35 shots now , another 15 or 20 to dial in the node then another 20 or thirty in seating depth test . We're pushing 70 shots at that point . No wait I might be changing primers and running more test . I can easily find a fantastic load in that many shots with a traditional load development .

The instructions say start 10% below max charge then load three rounds moving up in increments of a % amount . In my this case that dropped my start charge to 39gr for the three round increment pressure test rounds . I then started the actual node testing at 41.4 . That's all well and good until you see that the start charge in the Hornady manual is like 35gr . How can anyone claim this is an OCW test when the test it self EXCLUDES 75% of the charges you can use right from the get go . What if my OCW is actually in the 38gr to 39gr area ???

If seating depth is SOOOOO important why is it that loads I developed 2500rds ago still shoot great in my rifle . I have not change the COAL but my throat has eroded .070+ . If seating depth is so critical should I not have to chase the throat erosion in order to keep the same accuracy ??

Those are just a couple questions off the top of my head that have not been answered fully or at least to a point they are no longer in question .

Well let me help you out and give you my real life history with the OCW test and doing extensive Ladder testing that took all day and 3 guys to perform.

First on shooting while holding your breath, bad habit. You are still exerting yourself by using your muscles to hold your breath in or out. Muscles fatigue and will cause movement. you need to press the trigger on the natural respiratory pause. Greg at Primal Rights has a great write up on this, he goes into detail. But shoot during your natural respiratory pause. Doing it between heart beats, you're the man on that one. go run up a hill and then take a nice shot...

Back to your questions and concerns: First, yes you can develop your load in 20 rounds, I have done it more times then I can count fingers with all ranges of rifle calibers and rifles.

Second: You will see stringing at 100 yards, remember you can have horizontal stringing as well. the 100 yards eliminates the wind factor, allowing you to focus on the node. This node in return will give you a margin of error if you are not as anal as I am about being within .02 grains for each hand load I do. A lot of guys use quick powder dispensers, Dillon presses, Chargemasters, etc... I use a reprogrammed Chargemaster then checked by a secondary powder scale. the Chargemaster will be within .02 maybe 2 out of 50 rounds, friendly FYI. That's why I verify it.

Third: What charge do you use. Most rifles will have two nodes, one that is right near the max pressure, the other is a tad before it, I would use the word way before it, but we are talking maybe 2 full grains away. OCW focuses on the Optimal Charge Weight near the max pressure, also, some OBT comes into play. Optimal Barrel Time, that's another method you can use with Quick Load. If you pick the max pressure and follow the directions, i use .3 grain increments, and shoot it round robin style. You will see what you loads do cold, warm and hot. that is why only 3 shots, you can use 5 but you are wasting ammo and can use 3 shots to get the data you are looking for. Does that allow for errors? not really, I ensure to have my bipod loaded, trigger control, follow through, and a nice rear bag. I am able to call my shots as well when I have a flier, I usually call it before I look to see if there is a flier. Also, use different manuals, and what others have been loading similar to your rig.

Final thoughts:
I think you can do a modified OCW test, there have been many skeptics, but it has still be proven to work fine. the 6.5 Guys just did a thing on the Improved OCW method. I always do the OCW method, then after the first round of only 27 shots, I do another one, to fine tune it down within .2 grains. does really .1 grain matter? maybe, I stuck with .2 and went with it. I then go to 200 yards and retest, if there is wind, you are introducing more error compounded by human error... I will load up 3-4 loads from the first OCW test, that's an additional 9-12 rounds, so now we are at 36-39 total rounds. now remember this can all be done at 100 yards, that's the appeal. How many people have access to a 300,400,500,600, plus range to do a proper ladder test? lots of time and lots of wasted ammo. Then I do a simple seating depth test, I even use different primers at this point. I kill two birds with one stone. i keep all my OCW targets, and compare them because they already have one seating depth and primer combo, no point in shooting it again. so in total I may be just shy of 50 rounds. and boom it's golden. For my 300 BLK it took 17 rounds, 6.5 Grendel took 27 rounds, etc... All shoot .5 MOA or better. I hope this helped, my fingers hurt!

[Metal God]

I remember back when Dan was on all these boards talking about his chocolate cake and explaining how and why it works . It appears that was a marketing ploy so he now can charge for consulting on the method . He would explain how his method would/should give a rather wide charge zone where environmental or small component changes would not effect consistency . I now see guys talking about working loads up in .1gr or .2gr increments . If .1gr or .2gr is going to throw your load out of wak then you are not in that zone the OCW method is supposed to find It appears to me people have tried to improve on it . That's fine but once you change something in the method , is it really the method anymore ?

I've done quite a bit of testing and have found I can change my muzzle velocity just by how I hold the rifle . So those .1 and .2 grain differences can and often will be cancelled out by other factors . I always come back to if the OCW method does as it originally was claimed to do . I don't see how .1gr to .2gr should make a difference . The whole point of working up a load using this method is so that small a charge difference does not matter .

I guess my point is over the years people successfully use the method to work up loads but the original purpose has been lost . At this point the true OCW method would be better suited to hunting loads where weather conditions change from first test as well as just throwing your powder charge rather then weighing each charge . It would seem to me that's where the original OCW method could really shine

Third: What charge do you use. Most rifles will have two nodes, one that is right near the max pressure, the other is a tad before it, I would use the word way before it, but we are talking maybe 2 full grains away. OCW focuses on the Optimal Charge Weight near the max pressure, also, some OBT comes into play. Optimal Barrel Time,

This is a completely new load with a bullet and weight I've never used before . How ever after over 3k rounds through this rifle I used in the test . Many many of those rounds over a chrono with multiple different components . I have found a velocity zone that works better then anything else . Not that I work up a load to a specific velocity but over time and many different loads I have found that my best loads regardless of components ( to a point ) group best with a muzzle velocity of 2550fps to 2575fps . That clearly goes to barrel harmonics and barrel whip . I think that goes directly to OBT

[LynnJr]

MetalGod
Nodes have width to them.
I typical 22 Hornet load will be 0.2 grains wide.
A 6BR will be 0.5 grains wide.
A 30-06 will be 1.5 grains wide.
A 300 Weatherby will be 2.3 grains wide.
A 50 BMG will be 15 grains wide.
The idea is to use the 1% rule and get 2-3 shots in the same vertical plane.
Horizontal is the Shooter and means nothing when looking for a node.
Dan's method works but you shoot too many rounds down your barrel.
In your example your shooting 40 grains of powder so you should be using 0.4 grain increments and your node should be around 1.2 grains wide. Naturally if your not centered up on your powder charge you might only get two shots into the node.
Your bullets need to be seated at there longest length without exception!!!!!!
That is where most reloaders go wrong.
If your using a clip/magazine you need to seat all your rounds accordingly. If you only shoot single shot they need to be set to the full jam length.
Most shooters here think your pressure spikes at the full jam length because they simply don't know what they are doing and the myth gets rewritten time and time again.
I seat my bullets so long that I need a rubber hammer to close my bolt and never see pressure.
At 100 yards shooting a 300 WSM in a return to battery rest changing the powder charge from 60-66 grains will produce about 3/4 inch of vertical in your groups.
The farther you can shoot the better but you don't need to be at 500+ yards.
Load 2 rounds at each powder increment using the 1% rule then seat them to the longest length possible for either a magazine or single feeding them.