Reloading 308 for bolt gun, Die Question

[Metal God]

We have a fair number of people that think they're GOD in this forum

Wait a second I resemble that remark .

[J-cat]

Randall,

Thanks for replying in the middle of a p!$$ing contest...

In the past I've seen milotrain say that the best setup he prefers is the Dillon FL sizing die, Redding Competition seating die, and a Lee crimping die. I'm not exactly sure why he says that, but was curious what the Type S full length sizing die does that the Dillon doesn't.

I just got a Redding Competition Seating die, which is why I ask. For semi-automatic is there a reason I wouldn't want to FL size my brass? Mostly I wanted to ask you if there was still an advantage to neck sizing only in a semi-automatic?

I don't know if this message will be lost in the p!$$ing match or not. We have a fair number of people that think they're GOD in this forum and that it should be run their way ONLY. I'm not sure what the problem always seems to be, many threads tend to drift and this one is an example. Really no need for people to get hostile.

Neck sizing for a semi auto is bad. A fireformed case does not have enough clearance for the bolt to close reliably given the violence of automatic cycling

[ar15barrels]

was curious what the Type S full length sizing die does that the Dillon doesn't.



I just got a Redding Competition Seating die, which is why I ask. For semi-automatic is there a reason I wouldn't want to FL size my brass? Mostly I wanted to ask you if there was still an advantage to neck sizing only in a semi-automatic?

The redding full length type S die full length sizes the shoulder and body.
Type S dies take changeable bushings for the neck so you can tune how far down you size the neck as well as what diameter you size it.
This allows you to adjust the neck tension as well as reduce the over-sizing that most fixed-size dies do to the neck.

You should full length size for a semi-auto.

[Hawkstp]

Wow, I was away from the forum for a few days, and a lot happened on this thread.

After wading through a bit, there is a ton of good info here for me to go through.

As far as my goals. I am not planning on shooting competitions or needing to go to extremes for accuracy. Although I do want to have as accurate ammo as I can for my rifle. Mostly this will be for hunting, and some range shooting out to 500 yards.

Thanks again for all the replies!

[pacrat]

Wow, I was away from the forum for a few days, and a lot happened on this thread.

After wading through a bit, there is a ton of good info here for me to go through.

As far as my goals. I am not planning on shooting competitions or needing to go to extremes for accuracy. Although I do want to have as accurate ammo as I can for my rifle. Mostly this will be for hunting, and some range shooting out to 500 yards.

Thanks again for all the replies!

Glad you found it informative. As with most all CG reloading threads. There is a lot of chaff in the wheat. Only you, as an individual can decide, which is what, for your goals

This is JM2c and a personal opinion. For the parameters you have defined as your goals. The Lee Deluxe Die set as previously mentioned, is the best bang for your buck. Capable of loading ammunition that surpasses the capability of most shooters and their rifles for consistancy. Collet die for chamber fit, long case life, consistancy, and includes a FL die, for if you feel the need to bump your shoulders.

More tightly specified parameters. Require more tighly specified equipment to meet.

OOPs, since the last time I bought a set. They have added the "Crimp Die" to the set, and raised the price a bit. And changed the name to "Ultimate".

I personally do not crimp anything other than magnum pistol, and rifle cartridges used in tubular magazines.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/673835/lee-ultimate-4-die-set-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding

JM2c

[liber]

Wait a second I resemble that remark .

Actually wasn't intended for you!

BTW, thanks for your PM, was definitely helpful.

You should full length size for a semi-auto.

That has been my plan, I was just curious of the details.

I've heard of some problems using the neck sizing dies, depending on how much one needs to take them down. Since I am firing mine out of a semi-automatic I knew if I was to start getting into the fine details I will most likely end up with cartridges that won't fit in the mag.

I want to upgrade my Dillon to add the toolhead clamp kit from UniqueTek, that is supposed to get rid of some of the play in the toolhead that some folks complain about. I haven't noticed a lot, but see some occasional variance in the COAL on my loads. Hoping the clamp kit and the Competition seating die will help produce more consistent loads. But in general I have no complaints with my current loads, just looking for better.

[JMP]

I generally use the Redding type-S for 308 only because I have it in various rifles and it isn't a fussy cartridge. However, I have special sets of small primer Lapua to only be used with my best 308. I have just started using that brass, and it is gold.

[ar15barrels]

I want to upgrade my Dillon to add the toolhead clamp kit from UniqueTek, that is supposed to get rid of some of the play in the toolhead that some folks complain about. I haven't noticed a lot, but see some occasional variance in the COAL on my loads. Hoping the clamp kit and the Competition seating die will help produce more consistent loads.

Have you measured a bunch of your actual BULLETS to see how much the length of the BULLET varies?
It's probably about the same amount of variation as you are seeing in your loaded ammo.

Also, if you are sizing cases in the same toolhead while you are seating, some more OAL variation can come from differences in press frame stretch from one case to the next.
The Uniquetek thing won't help.
Size the cases in a single stage press to reduce variations in press frame stretch during sizing.

[JagerDog]

Actually wasn't intended for you!

BTW, thanks for your PM, was definitely helpful.



That has been my plan, I was just curious of the details.

I've heard of some problems using the neck sizing dies, depending on how much one needs to take them down. Since I am firing mine out of a semi-automatic I knew if I was to start getting into the fine details I will most likely end up with cartridges that won't fit in the mag.

I want to upgrade my Dillon to add the toolhead clamp kit from UniqueTek, that is supposed to get rid of some of the play in the toolhead that some folks complain about. I haven't noticed a lot, but see some occasional variance in the COAL on my loads. Hoping the clamp kit and the Competition seating die will help produce more consistent loads. But in general I have no complaints with my current loads, just looking for better.

IMHO the Dillon isn't the tool for "critical" loads that warrant such things as the comp seating dies. For such loading, a stout single stage is your friend rather than gizmos.

[JMP]

Have you measured a bunch of your actual BULLETS to see how much the length of the BULLET varies?

This is a big problem that I have seen as a common error. Folks will get the good spring-loaded micrometer die and adjust the knob with every bullet to make them the same length from base to tip of the cartridge. This guarantees bad ammo.

You leave the die stationary for a single load because it provides more consistency by having the seater closer to the ogive rather than the tip.

If you want to produce better results, you sort them by bearing surface first. There is a dramatic difference in bullet geometry with any of the big box makers. This is why I tend to use Lapua bullets when shooting lead as they have the best tolerances of all the major makers and have the most reliable ballistic numbers. They aren't the latest and greatest, but I use them for consistency as I really do not like sorting bullets.

If you are loading on a progressive, this process is probably moot as there's too many other inherent flaws. Progressive presses are for speed. One must use a single stage press for better accuracy.

It is really the shell plate that has issues more so than the tool head. The shell plate wobble pretty much guarantees crooked seating. Plus, there is no way of getting precise charges with a Dillon chargebar unless you manually powder-fill. In that case, you may as well be using a single stage.

The furthest I'd go with a Dillon is on auto-loaders. It's no good for bolt action rifles unless it is just plinking ammo.

For the OP, the best way to go is:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/271533/redding-type-s-match-bushing-2-die-set-308-winchester

and get a 335 and 336" bushing for FLC brass, and use it in something like a RockChucker. That's the most economical way to produce good ammo.

[pacrat]

$157.99 + $26.49 each for 2 bushings = $210.97.

For a novice to invest in a single set of dies. Who's stated goal is to make hunting ammo. With ocassional target shooting.

OP, some of the "chaff in the wheat" that I mentioned seems to be that some people "always" have the same answer. No matter what the question was.


JM2c

[TMB 1]

but the RockChucker is the way to go

[JMP]

$157.99 + $26.49 each for 2 bushings = $210.97.

For a novice to invest in a single set of dies. Who's stated goal is to make hunting ammo. With ocassional target shooting.

OP, some of the "chaff in the wheat" that I mentioned seems to be that some people "always" have the same answer. No matter what the question was.


JM2c

You are either a pot or a kettle as $200 for a die set that is commonly used is about half way in the range of prices people will pay. As I have indicated before, that more expensive micrometer spring loaded seating die can be used with about 100 other cases by simply ordering a new sleeve and putting in the die. You are paying for a good seating die that will produce concentric ammo. Each case you add from there, it's just a few bucks more.

Meanwhile, you are the guy who is too good to use things from "Horror Freight".

[TMB 1]

I've managed to make some really accurate ammo using RCBS and Lee dies with my Rock Chucker.

[JagerDog]

$157.99 + $26.49 each for 2 bushings = $210.97.

For a novice to invest in a single set of dies. Who's stated goal is to make hunting ammo. With ocassional target shooting.

OP, some of the "chaff in the wheat" that I mentioned seems to be that some people "always" have the same answer. No matter what the question was.


JM2c

Too funny and too true.

Std set of dies (I like Redding, but RCBS and others get it done) and if one wants to play with neck sizing, a Lee collet die, is all 90+% will ever need. What's that $65?

You'll likely be looking for a few loads to start. Your preferred hunting projectile, an economic substitute which simulates the ballistics and a light "target" bullet for general practice that preferably prints the same place at a convenient yardage. You'll be doing some ladder testing with each to achieve an accuracy node the rifle likes. Generally, you'll want to use most the available horsepower in hunting loads and something a bit easier on the hardware for a target/practice round. Most would suggest FL sizing for hunting rounds as that's not a good place to run into a feed issue. The target/practice rounds would be a good place to play with neck sizing. Some increased accuracy is often available and it's easier on the brass.