Reloading 308 for bolt gun, Die Question

[J-cat]

Because some people just have to be different.

[gunboat]

why buy an extra die if it is not necessary?

[J-cat]

How is it not necessary? In most cases it is necessary. And a collet neck die gives superior results anyhow. We haven't even touched on the concentricity issues involved in neck sizing with a FL die.

[Metal God]

We haven't even touched on the concentricity issues involved in neck sizing with a FL die.

That right there is a good point .

[pacrat]

Because neck sizing with a FL die is stupid. Every time I tried it I got the same result: the case would not chamber. Just because some yahoo with a tight chamber and loose FL die got away with it does not mean it us something generally acceptable.

Many here, who can and have done exactly what you say is impossible for many years. Myself since the early 70s. Are "stupid"? Really?

And because you claim to have tried it and couldn't. Does that make you a "yahoo" with loose chambers and tight dies? As opposed to us "yahoos" with tight chambers and loose dies. Or just smarter than those that can do something you haven't.

I do know this: that if you size the whole neck with any FL die you'll push the shoulder forward. And then the case won't chamber. This is because a FL die reduces the diameter of the base by .002" and shoulder by .004". No way of getting around that.

I can guess that right there is part of your problem. Only "you" keep harping about sizing the "whole neck". And the effect "that" has on the case. It's called 'partial neck sizing" for a reason.

As to your claimed .002" and .004" dimensional changes. That again ignores variables. Not only in the variable chamber dimensions of different rifles. But also the variable dimensions of dies. Everything man made is done to a +/- tolerance. And tolerance "stacking" can and does rear its head to effect how things work.

We are not talking about partial FL sizing!!!!

We are talking about neck sizing!!!

There is a difference!!!

Go back and read what Rocket actually wrote. He discusses both neck and partial FL sizing.

TMB1 said

You may be able to neck size 30-06 in a 308 full length die? I haven't tried it. I thought we were talking about 308 case with 308 dies.

Yes Sir, OP asked about .308 dies. Then in typical CG fashion people starting making "absolute" statements as to the feasability and possibility of neck sizing and different methods of doing so. Many such "absolute" statements as posted are incorrect.

I did not mean to infer that a 30-06 case be neck sized in a .308 die. But now that you mention it. It appears as a real possibility. I wouldn't, because it is likely that alignment of the neck in relation to the case could suffer in such an application. I used 06 case/die dimensions only as an example of how miniscule the diameter actually changes in relation to die travel due to case taper.

MG said

Just to be clear . I partial 1/2 the neck with out effecting other measurements . When I sized the neck 3/4 my CASE HEAD SPACE did grow .001 .

I only mentioned the lack of "diameter" change to make a point about compression. There is a distinct possibility that the shoulder grew due to upward friction from the expander. I cannot say definitively either way. .001" is only 1/4 the thickness of an average human hair. And any bolt gun could easily overcome that and close with lug cam leverage. Fireforming standard cases to AI config. Ackley intentionally made AI chambers dims. .004" of HS SHORT. For a crush fit, to fully support the case and force the base solidly against bolt face.

Cowboy T said,

So, with all this debate back and forth about using a FL sizing die to do "partial neck sizing"...

...why not just use a neck-sizing die to do the neck-sizing?

Good question.

For myself, I'm a "if not broke" kind of guy. I've been doing what some here say is impossible for over 40 yrs. With excellent accuracy results. So IMO it must be possible. I'm not going to go back through over a dozen sets of dies and start adding "neck only" dies unnecessarily.

In recent years, say last 15 or so estimate. I've been buying the Lee Deluxe sets as calibers get added. They contain Neck Collet and FL dies.

J-cat said

Because some people just have to be different.

Is it the people who have been doing it since before "neck only" dies were ever made. The ones being "different"? Or is it the ones that just have to have the latest extra doodad on the bench. That is different?

Me, I don't knock what works for others. Unless I believe they are doing something inherently unsafe.

gunboat said

why buy an extra die if it is not necessary?

Makes sense to me.

There used to be a rifle range at the north end of Jeffrey Road in Orange County. There was also over the hill from there, Silverado Rod and Gun Club range. Both ranges long gone now. There was an older fella named Dean who lived in the OC who frequented both. He is the one who took an interest in my shooting and reloading, all those years ago. And I still thank him for it. It was Dean who taught me about partial neck sizing and the dramatic improvement in accuracy capable using the technique over FL. Along with many others things such as "shoulder pressure" breath and trigger break techniques.

I never considered anyone who could do something that I didn't know how to do, stupid. Dean's last name was Grennell. But I didn't know that for a long time. Not until he gave me my first copy of 'ABC's of Reloading. And his picture was in it as author. I wish I had asked him to sign it.

J-cat said

How is it not necessary? In most cases it is necessary. And a collet neck die gives superior results anyhow. We haven't even touched on the concentricity issues involved in neck sizing with a FL die.

Simple it's not necessary if it's not needed. Your claim that "in most cases it is necessary" is your opinion. But you have a tendency to ignore many variables that don't fit your preconcieved opinion.

I will agree that in most cases a collet neck die is superior.

As to concentricity. Partial neck sizing is superior to neck only dies. Because FL dies provide tighter alignment support to case sidewalls than do neck only dies during the sizing of the case neck. Where only the shell holder and the neck portion of die are in contact with the case.

JM2c

[TMB 1]

Many here, who can and have done exactly what you say is impossible for many years. Myself since the early 70s. Are "stupid"? Really?

Is it the people who have been doing it since before "neck only" dies were ever made. The ones being "different"? Or is it the ones that just have to have the latest extra doodad on the bench. That is different?

Lyman has been making neck only dies since way before the early 70s.

30-06 has a little more taper than 308, but with standard full length size dies, partial sizing neck would partial size the case body with it too.

[pacrat]

Lyman has been making neck only dies since way before the early 70s.

30-06 has a little more taper than 308, but with standard full length size dies, partial sizing neck would partial size the case body with it too.

The fella that taught me the technique had been reloading since at least right after WW11. He was also unofficially known as "The Dean of Reloading". Not someone I would consider stupid.

I truthfully don't know when neck only dies became available. I did go upstairs just now, and dug in my dusty old bookshelf at the end of my loading bench. [my handle is "pacrat"] The 1973 Brownells catalog has no mention of Neck Sizing Dies. By Lyman, RCBS, or anyone else. Neither did the 1980 catalog or the same year of MidSouth Shooters catalog.

How much of the neck can be sized in a FL die before "any body constriction" occurs varies. Depending on initial case taper of cartridge design, how tight of a chamber the case was fired in, and how tight the tolerance of the die is. And even the ever present "springback" of the given cases alloy.

With many heavily tapered cases like the 6.5 Swede and the 7x57 Mauser there is very little neck left, maybe 5 or 10 thou. Left unsized when you incrementally lower the die until its sidewalls contact the case. Checking with dykem on the case for contact.

My .308, is a 600 Rem. And my RCBS sizer that came as a 2 die set in 1969. I get the necks sized [eyeball estimate] to within .020" of the shoulder. With no body constriction what so ever. So maybe I'm just a lucky "yahoo" with a tight chamber and a loose die. If so I'm triple lucky. Because my 22-250 and 2- 243s are about the same [eyeball est]. Yes, different dies for each .243 rifle.

There are no "absolutes", everything depends on variables.

For someone to claim definitively that something is impossible. Even though a great many people have been doing exactly that, with excellent results for decades. Sorry, that's just denial.

JM2c

[TMB 1]

I'm not sure when Lyman started making neck dies either. My Lyman neck only dies are Lyman 310 dies I believe from the 50s or 60s. The 30-06 dies originally belonged to my Grandpa. He's not around anymore to ask when he got them. I've been loading awhile too, started in about 77.

[J-cat]

The fella that taught me the technique had been reloading since at least right after WW11. He was also unofficially known as "The Dean of Reloading". Not someone I would consider stupid.

I truthfully don't know when neck only dies became available. I did go upstairs just now, and dug in my dusty old bookshelf at the end of my loading bench. [my handle is "pacrat"] The 1973 Brownells catalog has no mention of Neck Sizing Dies. By Lyman, RCBS, or anyone else. Neither did the 1980 catalog or the same year of MidSouth Shooters catalog.

How much of the neck can be sized in a FL die before "any body constriction" occurs varies. Depending on initial case taper of cartridge design, how tight of a chamber the case was fired in, and how tight the tolerance of the die is. And even the ever present "springback" of the given cases alloy.

With many heavily tapered cases like the 6.5 Swede and the 7x57 Mauser there is very little neck left, maybe 5 or 10 thou. Left unsized when you incrementally lower the die until its sidewalls contact the case. Checking with dykem on the case for contact.

My .308, is a 600 Rem. And my RCBS sizer that came as a 2 die set in 1969. I get the necks sized [eyeball estimate] to within .020" of the shoulder. With no body constriction what so ever. So maybe I'm just a lucky "yahoo" with a tight chamber and a loose die. If so I'm triple lucky. Because my 22-250 and 2- 243s are about the same [eyeball est]. Yes, different dies for each .243 rifle.

There are no "absolutes", everything depends on variables.

For someone to claim definitively that something is impossible. Even though a great many people have been doing exactly that, with excellent results for decades. Sorry, that's just denial.

JM2c

So I took the case I partially neck sized in my Lee FL die and seated a 175SMK in it using a Wilson inline seater. I then spun it on a Sinclair concentricity gauge which yielded .004" runout. I then pulled the bullet and neck sized that case using a Lee collet neck die and reseated the SMK. It now has .001" runout. So much for your superior concentricity claim. Oh, but you'll blame it on variables again and other cosmic events.

I don't ignore variables, but I'm a realist. Just because you can get away with neck sizing in a FL die due to tolerance stacking does not mean the principle is generally applicable. In fact, my experience with various 308 chambers tells me you can almost never get away with it. Sure, you can size a smidgeon of the neck and throw that in my face but all you've done is made a POS round and you know it. There are better ways to make better ammo. $20 is not too much to spend on a collet neck die.

If you read rsrocket's post carefully you'll notice he justifies his claim by stating he bumps the shoulder. Well, that's the whole point. Bumping the shoulder will make the case chamber. But you can't bump the shoulder if you don't size the whole neck. And then you're just FL sizing.

You know, we live in CA, not CU. We don't need to Mickey Mouse our ammo.

[gunboat]

Some folks just can't accept the fact there is more than one way to skin a cat, or that cats come in different colors --

Lyman and neck sizing -- all threaded lyman dies were neck size only until after WWII - They did make an un threaded "push" full length sizer for the 310 sets.
Lyman began making 7/8 threaded dies about 1955 which were full length sizing dies --
the ez-loader dies may have been made a few years earlier, they were a combination of a 5/8 threaded neck sizer/decapper/expander , a 5/8 threaded seater and a 7/8 threaded full length sizer -- the full length die mounted from below the threaded boss on the press --
my tuppence -

[J-cat]

OK, but this thread has morphed into neck sizing in a FL die. You're talking about neck sizing in a neck die.

[LynnJr]

OP
Read about halfway through the first page and ignore everything else except this post telling you only the first 1/2 of 1st page had any useful info pertaining to your post.

[Metal God]

LynnJr:

I agree , how ever when an OP never comes back to his/her thread and helps guide it along this is what happens . The least they can do is say thanks for the info . I now have what I need or you guys were useless thanks for nothing .

[LynnJr]

When the OP with one year of reloading under his belt got halfway down the first page then kept reading on why would he ever come back.
All the posters on this forum want to do is take out the tape measure.
Nobody here competes and nobody here knows why the various dies are meant to do and why.
If they do know they aren't telling anyone.
The moderators need to be top shelf to police this type of forum and sometimes the lone wolf knows more than the pack.

[pacrat]

It now has .001" runout. So much for your superior concentricity claim. Oh, but you'll blame it on variables again and other cosmic events.

Reading comprehension fail, or intentional out of context and incorrectly claiming what others said? Which is it?

My concentricity claim is valid in the context in which I made it.

When I made the concentricity comparison. It was specifically comparing "partial neck" sizing using a FL die. To using a standard type neck only die. Due to lateral support differences. Which you chose to ignore. I did not make any comparison between partial neck sizing in FL die to a Collet die.

As a matter of fact, I specifically said in post #50.

I will agree that in most cases a collet neck die is superior.

And

As to concentricity. Partial neck sizing is superior to neck only dies. Because FL dies provide tighter alignment support to case sidewalls than do neck only dies during the sizing of the case neck. Where only the shell holder and the neck portion of die are in contact with the case.

I also said, in the same post. Before I made the "partial to neck only" comparison.

In recent years, say last 15 or so estimate. I've been buying the Lee Deluxe sets as calibers get added. They contain Neck Collet and FL dies.

Just as you did with Rockets posts and focussed on the "using partial sizing in FL die to bump with". Yes, he said that. But it's not ALL he said.

I use the Lee collet neck sizer and have loaded full house rounds 10 times or more. I do have to bump the shoulder back about once every 3-4 reloads. I also neck size low recoil cast loads and the brass seems to last virtually forever.

He also mentioned in his first, IIRC post, "Partial Neck sizing using a FL die". It may be convenient for you to only repeat his first and last words. But he did use a lot of words in between which you have conveniently ignored.

You should maybe start using the "quote" function on the forum. Rather than repeatedly saying others said things they didn't say, in order to promote your view. An honest discussion regarding procedural differences, first of all requires honest opinions. Not obsfucations.

I don't ignore variables, but I'm a realist. Just because you can get away with neck sizing in a FL die due to tolerance stacking does not mean the principle is generally applicable.

A realist would read what is really written, not pick just the portions they claim support their view. I, nor anyone else said you can get away with "partial neck" sizing due to "tolerance stacking". How much neck can be sized using the procedure, depends on case taper, with "tolerance stacking" adding a variable to that amount.

Many members say they have used the procedure for decades with good effect. You claim it is not only stupid, but impossible. Well OK then, you must be right, and others are just stupid.

I've shared about all I know about "partial neck sizing". Using a FL die. So I'm out of here. Maybe somebody can read about the procedure, and improve their accuracy quite a bit. Likely not as much as using a collet die. But still a marked improvement.

If the lone wolf has the goal of chasing a rabbit that is 2,000 yds. away. But the pack wants to eat the deer that is only 100 yds away. Why would the pack choose to follow him? Oh, that's right, they wouldn't.

Bye