Powder equivalence chart

[Fishslayer]

The chart is to show you what other powders might work when you can't get a particular one.
It is NOT to say that you can substitute LOAD DATA from one powder for ANOTHER powder.
You would still need to use the proper LOAD DATA for the powder you are using.

I would have put your warning in BIG letters right at the top of that chart rather than a fine print warning at the very bottom.

A beginner reading that might conclude that "equivalent" means "equivalent" or something. There is more to a powder than burn rate.

[ar15barrels]

A beginner reading that might conclude that "equivalent" means "equivalent" or something. There is more to a powder than burn rate.

It's really a chart of "similarities", not "equivalents".

[jtake]

It's really a chart of "similarities", not "equivalents".

And that is my beef with the chart. "Similar" is not equivalent. It would be better and more responsible to label it a "Similar Powder Chart" highlighting that there will be variances in the actual load data.

Too many people take things too literally or without real thought behind things these days.

[Lead Waster]

So really the chart is "helpful chart to find a similar powder to what you use when you run out and can't find it".

Useful in these days of powder famine, as a guideline.

Also handy if you find a powder and wonder "Hmmm, I wonder what it might be good for".

[LynnJr]

Wow you guys really like to squabble over nothing.

When the testing is done it is just like making meatloaf. If you make 20 different meatloafs using the same ingredients you will end up with 20 different meatloafs.
Powder has a range of use or variation. Canister grade powder has a 10% variation range and that is why we rework loads every time we change lot numbers.
It is also why the various powders can be found out of order on the burn rate charts.

[bruceflinch]

^ Threadkiller!

[LynnJr]

Powder for the handloader varies a maximum of 10% and powder for commercial/military use varies by 20%.
They store the original batch of Unique in water. When a new batch is made they remove some from the water then dry it for testing. They compare the hundred plus year old powder to the new stuff and if it is close they call it Unique.

[JagerDog]

Powder for the handloader varies a maximum of 10% and powder for commercial/military use varies by 20%.
They store the original batch of Unique in water. When a new batch is made they remove some from the water then dry it for testing. They compare the hundred plus year old powder to the new stuff and if it is close they call it Unique.

Which brings it back to 10% as measured how?

Would that be 10% charge change? 10% charge change could SOAR (non-linear) the pressures. 10% pressure change in application "X"? How does that carry over to application "Y"?

If there's a 10% variance, how could one assemble an "equivalence" chart indicating substitutes withing 5% with any efficacy?

My impression (with no data to support such impression) is that canister powder is MUCH closer than some rather arbitrary 10%. Powder mfg's would have to build that 10% variance into their published loads. The typical protocol to start 10% less than listed/max is to account for a variety of variables.

I really don't think most...across the board from pistol, rifle, shotshell...requalify their loads everytime there's a lot # change.

[LynnJr]

JagerDog
When powder is sold by the train car to a ammunition manufacturer it comes with a data sheet and they adjust as needed.

For the home hobbyist they sell canister grade powder which is produced in large batches using the same formula but as that only gets them close they blend it to produce as close as possible.

As you shoot more and more you will hear people giving loads and saying that was with a fast lot or a slow lot of powder. They say that because they chronograph there loads and they see the variation.
The average Shooter has no idea what there velocity is and very few reloaders do.

As to not noticing variation from lot to lot I have a jug of RE22 sitting here with lot# 25083 on the bottom of the jug. A quick Google search should show you that this tested at the factory powder was blowing up guns left and right. On the Alliant website they had a front page caution on it even though it met spec.

While your on Google look up N170 in the burn rate charts and let us know were it rates compared to RE25 H1000 and other such powders.

I will help you out and let you know it is all over the charts bt as much as 6 positions.
Those charts are produced by the various powder manufacturers with a team of engineers and lawyers working for them.

[JagerDog]

JagerDog
When powder is sold by the train car to a ammunition manufacturer it comes with a data sheet and they adjust as needed.

For the home hobbyist they sell canister grade powder which is produced in large batches using the same formula but as that only gets them close they blend it to produce as close as possible.

As you shoot more and more you will hear people giving loads and saying that was with a fast lot or a slow lot of powder. They say that because they chronograph there loads and they see the variation.
The average Shooter has no idea what there velocity is and very few reloaders do.

As to not noticing variation from lot to lot I have a jug of RE22 sitting here with lot# 25083 on the bottom of the jug. A quick Google search should show you that this tested at the factory powder was blowing up guns left and right. On the Alliant website they had a front page caution on it even though it met spec.

While your on Google look up N170 in the burn rate charts and let us know were it rates compared to RE25 H1000 and other such powders.

I will help you out and let you know it is all over the charts bt as much as 6 positions.
Those charts are produced by the various powder manufacturers with a team of engineers and lawyers working for them.

So again......

Which brings it back to 10% as measured how? What metric(s)? Documented where/how?


Think about just who would be using such a chart and how they might be inclined to use it.

If one lot to the next isn't "equivalent", how the heck can a different powder be "equivalent" to it? I see an opportunity for aggregate error. No one said powders don't vary or a variance couldn't be detected by the handloader. I've seen numbers tossed out, but nothing supporting them. Other "hearsay" says 3% variation...supposedly from a ballistician at a major powder mfg.

I think that lot of RE22 was actually recalled. How was it tested to be "in spec"? It would seem NOT in the implied application (bottleneck rifle in appropriate cartridge).

I load a lot of shotshells. NO one alters their load data based on lot #. However I've known published loads to spec over pressure with lot # "X" and facility "Y". Fortunately, shotguns tend to be much stronger than needed by SAAMI and/or proof pressures would suggest.

I'm well aware that engineers, ballisticians, lawyers are employed by powder mfgs/marketers. I've never seen a lot # listed in data supplied by such though. Just the usual "start" vs. "max" and nothing indicating a new powder lot needs to go through the same development (even though it would be a good practice when working near the limit and mandatory for precision competition). So are those ~60kpsi loadings "lawyered"? Were they developed with a "fast lot"? Slow lot? Average lot?

[LynnJr]

JagerDog
This is what Alliant has to say but you could always call them and ask.
Rifle powder is usually weighed and shotgun powder is usually measured by volume.
I am not going to convince you no matter what proof is posted so simply E-mail them or call. But do mention lot 25083 RE22 in your correspondence. Let us know.
Our Mission: Premium Performance, Consistent Quality

Every container of Alliant smokeless powder is backed by a century of manufacturing experience and the most exacting quality control procedures in the industry. We check and control chemical composition, the shape and size of powder grains, even the propellants' density and porosity. We send samples of every batch to our ballistics lab, testing for burning speed, among other things. Then, after blending batches together for exactly the right ballistic characterisitics, we use our advanced computerized equipment to test again.

[LynnJr]

I was at the fun store today and notice that there was a sign up saying there was a recall on Reloader 22 Lot# 25083. The Alliant site says some crap about making sure you reduce loads 10% when you use this lot of powder. Well gee, what the hell are you supposed to do when you already did up a bunch of rounds to previously worked up loading data that happens to be near max and are not sure if this lot of powder was used? Does Alliant expect you to go pull all of the bullets and start over?

JagerDog
Go to Google and type in RE22 Alliant lot 25083 and simply look at what a manufacturer has to say.

[JagerDog]

[QUOTE]

I was at the fun store today and notice that there was a sign up saying there was a recall on Reloader 22 Lot# 25083. The Alliant site says some crap about making sure you reduce loads 10% when you use this lot of powder. Well gee, what the hell are you supposed to do when you already did up a bunch of rounds to previously worked up loading data that happens to be near max and are not sure if this lot of powder was used? Does Alliant expect you to go pull all of the bullets and start over?

Why are you poaching posts from a different site that are a dozen+ years old without referencing them?

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=133647

7/18/2002 1127 PM EDT
I was at the fun store today and notice that there was a sign up saying there was a recall on Reloader 22 Lot# 25083. The Alliant site says some crap about making sure you reduce loads 10% when you use this lot of powder. Well gee, what the hell are you supposed to do when you already did up a bunch of rounds to previously worked up loading data that happens to be near max and are not sure if this lot of powder was used? Does Alliant expect you to go pull all of the bullets and start over? If I sound pissed, it is because I just found that I HAVE 1lb of that lot of powder and am not sure what rounds it went into. I know I used at least 1 lb of RE22 I bought at the same time but I have no idea what the lot# was because the empty can was tossed long ago.

You're the one who said powder mfg's work on a 10% tolerance. You're the one who made this universal claim (10% for canister and 20% for bulk). Your circular argument does nothing to support that. Nothing thus far from Alliant, Mfg "X", SAAMI, etc. supports such claim.

I'm the one who said my understanding (through hearsay) was that lot of powder was recalled. You're not telling me anything.

The only safety notice I can find at Alliant is in reference to Blue Dot in pistol loads (which I've been aware of since it's announcement).

Alliant's data always says to start out 10% light since they only provide "max".

REDUCE RIFLE AND HANDGUN CHARGE WEIGHTS BY 10% TO ESTABLISH A STARTING LOAD.

DO NOT EXCEED THE LOADS DISPLAYED ON THE SITE OR ALLIANT'S RELOADERS GUIDE.

That's across the board. Notice nothing indicating starting over with every new lot. Also notice nothing indicating this data may have been obtained with a "fast lot", providing some headroom, or "slow lot". The 10% recommended reduction is to address a host of variables, not just some powder variance. The 3% variance I've seen elsewhere seems much more likely.



In reality, the larger the allowable variance, the less viable any "equivalence" chart would be.

[LynnJr]

[QUOTE=JagerDog;16827688]

Why are you poaching posts from a different site that are a dozen+ years old without referencing them?

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=133647

I didn't know it was a requirement. Can you show me or link me to Kestryls post requiring it?

You're the one who said powder mfg's work on a 10% tolerance. You're the one who made this universal claim (10% for canister and 20% for bulk). Your circular argument does nothing to support that. Nothing thus far from Alliant, Mfg "X", SAAMI, etc. supports such claim.

I am not making any claims at all I am just repeating what the powder manufacturer told me.

I'm the one who said my understanding (through hearsay) was that lot of powder was recalled. You're not telling me anything.

It was never recalled so your source is incorrect. What they posted was to reduce your load and work back up.


The only safety notice I can find at Alliant is in reference to Blue Dot in pistol loads (which I've been aware of since it's announcement).

Yeah they don't leave announcements on there home page for long. I think it hurts sales?


Alliant's data always says to start out 10% light since they only provide "max".

Nothing new even the manufacturers with a minimum charge recommend
You use caution.


That's across the board. Notice nothing indicating starting over with every new lot. Also notice nothing indicating this data may have been obtained with a "fast lot", providing some headroom, or "slow lot". The 10% recommended reduction is to address a host of variables, not just some powder variance. The 3% variance I've seen elsewhere seems much more likely.

Yeah you can play it by hunch but most manufacturers recommend reloaders use common sense.



In reality, the larger the allowable variance, the less viable any "equivalence" chart would be.

I have never seen an equivalence chart for those manufacturing in bulk. I would imagine that is why they staff engineers and PhD's and use pressure barrels when they blend powder to get the correct charge.

You can call Alliant and ask them just like I did and see if they tell you the same thing they told me.

[JagerDog]

It's just plain dishonest to poach a post and portray it as your own/current.

If you need that as a published rule, then I really can't help you.

The rest is just more of your circular arguing. Nothing to support "10%" powder variance/tolerance and nothing supporting the efficacy of an "equivalency" chart (particularly when represented to be within 5% of "comparable"...if 10% between lots has/had any viability).

Pictures of powder jugs???