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Frangible ammo for self defense

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  • GunRunnerz
    Member
    • Sep 2013
    • 216

    Frangible ammo for self defense

    Why cool packaging doesn't necessarily equal performance

    If you've been around for a while you have probably come across "super tactical amazing ammo". The ammo usually features some low mass high velocity projectile that promises to kill bears in a single blow. Often times they spend more money on the packaging than they do on the round. For these reasons I was very skeptical when a viewer asked me to test the HPR Black Ops 62gr OTF in .223 Remington.

    Ammo Features:


    This particular round features a 62gr Open Tip Fraginble projectile. The bullet has a metal alloy core. It's design is supposed to enable it to fragment early in soft tissue in order to transfer maximum kinetic energy while minimizing the risk of over penetration. Frangible ammunition also holds the ability to disintegrate when it strikes hard surfaces.



    Results
    Bare Gel:


    The bare gel test yielded some interesting results. The round performed as designed. We saw an almost perfect jacket core separation and fragmentation. The powder alloy core did a decent job of transfering energy early, although some of the powder continued into the gel out until the twelve inch mark. The farthest point of penetration was measured at twelve inches.

    Car Door Results:

    The round seems to have been hindered by the car door test. The metal "doors" kept the round from immediately fragmenting. The bullet broke into two main portions that traveled to the twelve inch mark. This disabled the rounds ability to transfer energy early. Car doors are usually constructed of thin metal (~20 gauge steel). I was hoping this would cause fragmentation in the round before it hit the block.

    Wall Sim test:

    Surprisingly the wall completely defeated this ammo. The round struck the gel sideways and failed to fragment. After spinning through the gel and yawing off course the bullet punched out of the side of the block around the nine inch mark. Damage to the gel was minimal.

    Conclusion:
    Overall this ammunition could be used in specialized settings. This test also reinforces the idea that expensive packaging doesn't equate to high performance. The round performed well against bare gel, but did not seem to handle the barriers properly. Frangible ammunition is designed to break apart upon contact with hard targets. Unfortunately the barriers we often find in firefights, such as car doors and dry wall, do not seem hard enough to cause the disintegration of the bullets that we had hoped. As a result of this failure, the ammunition disintegrated in random and unreliable patterns. This issue may be inherit to all types of frangible ammunition, but we would need more testing to confirm that speculation.
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  • #2
    J-cat
    Calguns Addict
    • May 2005
    • 6626

    Generally, in a firefight it is desirable for the bullet to defeat the barrier and punch a hole in the target.

    Comment

    • #3
      GunRunnerz
      Member
      • Sep 2013
      • 216

      Originally posted by J-cat
      Generally, in a firefight it is desirable for the bullet to defeat the barrier and punch a hole in the target.
      Yes in a standard firefight. For home defense some people prefer disintegration due to the risk of over penetration.
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      • #4
        J-cat
        Calguns Addict
        • May 2005
        • 6626

        So why the car door test?

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        • #5
          stilly
          I need a LIFE!!
          • Jul 2009
          • 10685

          In case it gets too hot they can roll the window down?
          7 Billion people on the planet. They aint ALL gonna astronauts. Some will get hit by trains...

          Need GOOD SS pins to clean your brass? Try the new and improved model...



          And remember- 99.9% of the lawyers ruin it for the other .1%...

          Comment

          • #6
            Cody
            Senior Member
            • Jul 2009
            • 2148

            Originally posted by J-cat
            So why the car door test?
            In case of drive by's.

            Comment

            • #7
              Cokebottle
              Señor Member
              CGN Contributor - Lifetime
              • Oct 2009
              • 32373

              Originally posted by GunRunnerz
              Unfortunately the barriers we often find in firefights, such as car doors and dry wall, do not seem hard enough to cause the disintegration of the bullets that we had hoped. As a result of this failure, the ammunition disintegrated in random and unreliable patterns. This issue may be inherit to all types of frangible ammunition, but we would need more testing to confirm that speculation.
              Which is exactly the opposite of what you want in a defensive round.

              Frangible ammo is simply not suitable for defense.

              The key to home defense is determining ahead of time where your "hold" positions will be based on having the "most safe" backstop.
              - Rich

              Originally posted by dantodd
              A just government will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just government. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.

              Comment

              • #8
                Off the Roster
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2013
                • 2354

                Seems like just another (expensive) product to separate people from their money. .223 at 10-15ft for self defense - not my first choice.

                Comment

                • #9
                  GunRunnerz
                  Member
                  • Sep 2013
                  • 216

                  Great points everyone. To answer the question about car doors. We are testing this ammo in our best 5.56 ammo series. We run all ammo through the same tests even if they aren't designed to succeed. Sometimes we get surprises that we wouldn't have found if we hadn't run seemingly ridiculous tests.
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                  • #10
                    stilly
                    I need a LIFE!!
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 10685

                    Those are not car doors. Now that I watched the video, I think I caught a detail that everyone missed. That was NOT a car door. I am having doubts on the drywall inner house wall too now since I have lost faith in the car door.

                    You can not fold a piece of sheet metal and declare that it is a car door. If that is the case then I have a lot of car doors at my house. See? That does not work. Car doors will have other things inside, plastics, metals, wires, GLASS (possibly anyways) so I demand a REAL car door or you can not say you have one and a FAUX CAR DOOR does not work. Nobody drives FAUX CARS...

                    Test is contaminated, redo.
                    7 Billion people on the planet. They aint ALL gonna astronauts. Some will get hit by trains...

                    Need GOOD SS pins to clean your brass? Try the new and improved model...



                    And remember- 99.9% of the lawyers ruin it for the other .1%...

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      GunRunnerz
                      Member
                      • Sep 2013
                      • 216

                      Originally posted by stilly
                      Those are not car doors. Now that I watched the video, I think I caught a detail that everyone missed. That was NOT a car door. I am having doubts on the drywall inner house wall too now since I have lost faith in the car door.

                      You can not fold a piece of sheet metal and declare that it is a car door. If that is the case then I have a lot of car doors at my house. See? That does not work. Car doors will have other things inside, plastics, metals, wires, GLASS (possibly anyways) so I demand a REAL car door or you can not say you have one and a FAUX CAR DOOR does not work. Nobody drives FAUX CARS...

                      Test is contaminated, redo.
                      Hi stilly,

                      The reason we use two peices of 20 gauge steel set three inches apart from one another is because it is FBI protocol.

                      You are correct in assuming car doors and home interior walls are filled with other obstacles. In order to keep a dependable and fair testing procedure, we give the ammo a best case scenario.



                      Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
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                      Check us out on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/GunRunnerz762

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        dominic
                        Veteran Member
                        • Aug 2008
                        • 3038

                        Originally posted by GunRunnerz
                        Hi stilly,

                        The reason we use two peices of 20 gauge steel set three inches apart from one another is because it is FBI protocol.

                        You are correct in assuming car doors and home interior walls are filled with other obstacles. In order to keep a dependable and fair testing procedure, we give the ammo a best case scenario.



                        Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
                        You're right, that is the FBI protocol for handgun ammunition tests....

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          stilly
                          I need a LIFE!!
                          • Jul 2009
                          • 10685

                          What does the FBI know? How long did it take them to discover the 10mm round?

                          Thankfully, I do not yet work for the FBI so I am unfamiliar with their test protocols.

                          I know that it is impossible to duplicate a proper car door or house wall based on all of the cars and walls out there and for me to expect that would be arrogant on my part. I am certainly no firearms expert but if the FBI really only uses two pieces of sheet metal or a folded piece like that, then they are ****ing up and I would like to think that there can be something better than a two pieces of sheet metal. I mean, there is USUALLY going to be trim at least and that will have an impact on bullets, maybe not as significant as people think, but who knows, maybe there is actually something about different car doors or different trim- leather vs plastic vs cloth and the FBI is missing it.

                          ATF was at my house one day and in going through all of my **** and grabbing EVERYTHING they grabbed, they completely MISSED the UZI and Cobray CM-11 that were SBRs and the Daewoo DR-200 WITH the side folding stock and pistol grip loaded with a metal 120rd drum. All they had to do was open the foot locker that was sitting there unlocked right next to the safe. You would think that those guys are the experts at finding things...

                          So you see, just because they are LEO does not make them perfect. They make mistakes too. Now let's see some vinyl and leather glued to the next car doors...

                          Last edited by stilly; 07-20-2015, 2:16 AM.
                          7 Billion people on the planet. They aint ALL gonna astronauts. Some will get hit by trains...

                          Need GOOD SS pins to clean your brass? Try the new and improved model...



                          And remember- 99.9% of the lawyers ruin it for the other .1%...

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            dominic
                            Veteran Member
                            • Aug 2008
                            • 3038

                            The key word there being "handgun", the OP was not testing handgun ammo.

                            Comment

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