Basic reloading question- how full is full

[Daniel_Carlsbad]

Thanks for all the excellent advice I have received on here hopefully in time I'll be able to help others as well. So here goes one more question.

The other day I asked about reloading 9mm 115grain berry's plated round nose bullets with alliant power pistol powder. The book says 6.7 grains, i got some advice and also read other posts saying to start at 6. While I've also read that some people have liked 5.6 or 5.7 grains. While setting up the powder station in my dillon 650 if I put in 6 grains it pretty much fills it to the top. I loaded up one w 5.6 grains and let the powder check rod litely push it down and I was able to cleanly seat the bullet. With all of the discussions about hot loads it seems like going to 6 grains pretty much fills the case up. I know I don't want a big air cavity between the powder and the Bullet but has it been your experience that when you seat the bullet your actually pushing the powder down? Also to note- I used a brand new calibrated dillon electronic scale to weight the powder after I filled a couple cases to validate the amount of powder being dispensed into the case.

Thanks for any opinions you have on this one.



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[CSACANNONEER]

So, you used a brand new electronic balance? Did you isolate it from household current fluctuations? Did you remove any other possible electronic interference like phones, speakers, magnets, cel phones, florescent lights, etc?

Have you tried contacting the experts? http://www.alliantpowder.com/questions/default.aspx

http://www.berrysmfg.com/contact.aspx?n=328159

Which book are you using? Have you looked at multiple sources or, are you relying on a single source for your data? Does your book say it is a compressed charge?

[Daniel_Carlsbad]

Thanks for your input. I was in the garage w no other electricity nearby. My phone was in the house. The scale was zeroed before I started. I. Using the Lyman 4th edition new manual. It only says 6.7 grains it didn't give any range data for the charge and didn't mention "compressed" charge. I found range data by doing many many other Internet searched. But good idea I'll take your advice and consult the experts that you've included in your post. I'll see what alliant has to say about it. Was just curious if anyone has had this kind of issue since 9mm case are so small to begin with. Thanks again.


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[bubbala]

i don't think i've loaded @ max much. just did some testing for a pistol and loaded 10 rounds maybe. gun liked 5.8 power pistol @ 115 grain jacketed.

CSA hates digital scales b.t.w. and i'm not overwhelmed with them either.

and whats wrong with air in the case? try loading 45 acp with modern powders and fill the case.

[CSACANNONEER]

I use digital scales but, I also understand that they need to be isolated from interference and voltage fluctuations too.

[Eljay]

I haven't used power pistol but it's not unusual for 9mm loads to be compressed with the slower burning powders. That being said 6.7gr of anything seems remarkably high for 9mm...

[Eljay]

OK, I just hit Alliant's website and they do list 6.7gr for a 115gr Speer Gold Dot Hollowpoint. I'd like to point out two things - a) you have a different bullet profile, and b) that's a max load going at 1,212 fps. You don't ever start at maximum and especially not when you're not even using the same bullet!

[AreWeFree]

I'm currently using Power Pistol with Berry's 124gr plated RN, 6gr at 1.133 COAL.

At 6gr, the powder fills approx 3/4 to 4/5's of the case, and when seated I believe the bullet is just touching or ever so slightly compressing the powder.

I'm measuring with RCBS 5-0-5 scale, throwing from a Redding powder drop.

I used Lyman's 49th reloading book for data, they list a starting load of 5.0gr for around 124gr JHP or FMJ, and 5.9gr starting for 115gr JHP.

Using Lyman's 49th, Alliant's lousy but free load book, and internet loads, I loaded a few at 5.2, 5.4 and 5.6, same OAL of 1.133. I don't believe the case was sealing properly in the chamber.

I upped the charge to 6.0gr and brass looks clean, no pressure signs. Huge fireball though, kind of fun. I'm going to stay at 6.0gr.

If you want pictures for comparison let me know and I'll publicly post the data here.

[Daniel_Carlsbad]

Arewefree...thanks for that response. Eljay, yes I know I'm new to reloading but in the Lyman manual it only list ls the one amount of powder it doesn't show a range. So my post mentioned the amount they advertised. In definitely not Interested in hot loads or anything near hot. From all the reading I've done it does seem that power pistol runs pretty heavy but that's what the books say.

The 4/5 of a case full is what I was referring to. Yes I know rookie questions from a newbie but we all have to learn sometime and I appreciate all those who have responded. Everyday there's more to learn that's what makes reloading so much fun.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Have a good 4th of July.

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[AreWeFree]

Do you mean the Alliant "manual?" I see the Lyman 49th does list a min/max load with COAL and velocity.

Power Pistol doesn't have a lot of wiggle room, but my only priorities are on a safe and consistent load, not necessarily a highly accurate load for a specific pistol. That's why I'm loading to a longer COAL and using a bit more charge than what's really needed.

I believe I could work up a better load by dropping the charge and only manipulating seating depth so it's a shorter COAL, but for now I feel like I have a good amount of play giving me a safety net.

Anyway, I'm a newb, grain of salt, YMMV, but I'd be happy to help if there's anything I can do.

[stilly]

So, you used a brand new electronic balance? Did you isolate it from household current fluctuations? Did you remove any other possible electronic interference like phones, speakers, magnets, cel phones, florescent lights, etc?

Have you tried contacting the experts? http://www.alliantpowder.com/questions/default.aspx

http://www.berrysmfg.com/contact.aspx?n=328159

Which book are you using? Have you looked at multiple sources or, are you relying on a single source for your data? Does your book say it is a compressed charge?

If he had an American Weigh Gemini 20 digital he would not need to worry about any of that. But yeah, since he has a ****ty Dillon scale everything can and will affect it...

hehe. Best $23 I ever spent on a scale.

Daniel from Carlsbad: It is MY belief that the reason why you want little air in the case is for TWO reasons, well, ONE reason and ONE myth that I have not proven nor do I care to prove so I stay away, well no not really...
1. The rule of having a case filled 3/4+ of the way up is because back in the day when the rules were made folks had loading blocks, well, they drilled holes into rocks and held the shells that way probably. But by having the shells 3/4+ filled it was hard to DOUBLE charge them. Then it just became the thing to do, the more powder in the case the better you are...

2. Apparently if you DO have TOOOOO little powder in some cases it can allow the controlled burn and gas expansion to mix with air and instead of a controlled burn you now have an explosion.

How does this work? Easy, take some ammonia and pour it into a glass bottle that has some red devil LYE in it and allow hydrogen gas to be made, capture the gas by placing a baloon over the mouth of the jar and when the balloon fills up you can release the air into a bowl of soapy water and make bubbles. Much like when you used to take a bath and fart and make bubbles... You can then scoop these bubbles (not the fart bubbles, but the hydrogen bubbles) and while they are scooped into your hand pass your hand over a candle (that is lit) and you will hear a POP and you might feel a pull on your hand. That was an implosion. If you wanna feel an EXPLOSION then you can get a second balloon filled with air and allow BOTH balloons to release the air into the soapy water and then scoop up the bubbles again and pass your hand over a candle. It MIGHT hurt this time around, actually, I do not think it will, but it will certainly SOUND a bit different.

SO, moral of this story, don't fart in a bubble bath and reload your shells with it unless you want to be glorious and possibly go to valhalla...

You are welcome.

[AreWeFree]

^what the heck.... stilly man, what?? you and that shine...


If your charge doesn't fill enough volume, when the cartridge is on it's side, the charge may be below the flash hole. When the round is fired the primer has a larger surface area of powder to ignite, creating a substantial pressure spike which may be over pressured.

A larger volume of powder to case ratio should be more consistent because minor variations in weight have less effect, plus the burn will be more consistent thereby creating predictable velocities and lower standard deviation between rounds.

[Anemic AL]

This sounds like a good topic. Thank you for starting it up, OP.

If your charge doesn't fill enough volume, when the cartridge is on it's side, the charge may be below the flash hole. When the round is fired the primer has a larger surface area of powder to ignite, creating a substantial pressure spike which may be over pressured.

A larger volume of powder to case ratio should be more consistent because minor variations in weight have less effect, plus the burn will be more consistent thereby creating predictable velocities and lower standard deviation between rounds.

I have a question regarding this. You'll have to excuse me, as I'm new to reloading so I may be confusing with my terminology, etc.

My understanding on fill volume has a lot to do with the powder burn rate. Some will be filled more, some less; based on their rate. The amount of air volume -- I'm thinking it's matched to the powder charge. It's like making Kool-Aid. 1 part KA to 2 parts water (for example). If you use less or more water, your Kool-Aid tastes different. For us, the water would represent the air space. All powder charges are matched with a certain amount of air, and these two variables create the peak pressure at firing.

If I'm wrong, please let me know. But that said, I don't see how the placement of the powder could change pressure to a great extent. If I point and shoot at a snake on the ground, the powder would be at the furthest from the primer. Would that really change pressures considering the total volume in the case is unchanged?

[J-cat]

Yes.

I have seen 200 FPS difference in the 38 Special.

But this thread is about the 9mm and there isn't enough room in the case to cause a powder positioning problem.

Regarding case fill, powder varies from lot to lot. The burn rate varies as does bulk density. So if you take two different powder lots and weigh out 6grs, one may fill the case more than the other.

Case fill also depends on how the powder settles in the case. If you slowly trickle it in using a long drop tube the powder column will be shorter. If you dump it in fast through a short funnel the powder column will be longer and take up more room in the case.

Last, it's ok to compress 99% of powders. The only powder I'm aware of that you should not compress is Trail Boss. Use published data. Don't be scared of the powder.

[Daniel_Carlsbad]

All great info. Thanks again everyone. I'm going to reach out to alliant and get their point of view as well. I'll followup on Monday if I hear back from them by then. Being the newbie I always want to be extra cautious and better to ask more questions then make some stupid mistakes. Thanks

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